We are not convinced

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Coco
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Post by Coco » Wed Feb 04, 2004 5:53 pm

Hi Lightning!

I agree with you about the "convenience" factor regarding Leonard.
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Coco
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Post by Coco » Wed Feb 04, 2004 5:55 pm

George,

I don't know what you mean about "blaming the messenger"? Does this have reference to my dislike of your latest poem? If so, you completely miss the point.
Hermitage
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Post by Hermitage » Wed Feb 04, 2004 6:42 pm

George,
You are entirely correct that writers don't have to believe in the things they write to express a point of view, but serious writers can explain their work, and their choices in language.
It's not enough to say, I'm a writer, and I can say whatever I please, because I am a writer and that's the nature of writing.

You sound a little defensive, and it's really preventing you from reflecting on what you have written.
Hermitage
Linda
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Post by Linda » Wed Feb 04, 2004 7:03 pm

Right on Coco.

One of the things that attracted me to LC was that what he writes comes from his heart, I will dump him in a second it it is not. Don't burst my bubble.
Linda
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Kush
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Post by Kush » Wed Feb 04, 2004 7:20 pm

i'd think it would be better for "our young people" (and their parents if need be) to take some responsibility for their actions and just said no to drugs.
As for what LC thinks I don't see why it should matter so much one way or other - he ain't my moral compass (or for that matter bob dylan or anybody else).
Hermitage
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Post by Hermitage » Wed Feb 04, 2004 9:56 pm

Unfortunately, young people do not always have the best judgment (that's why certain rights are often withheld from them). Some parents don't have such good judgment. Should their children suffer because their parents didn't, couldn't, wouldn't protect them from the influence of drug dealers?

Moreover, parents, for better and for worse, can't control everything their children do.

Although I would not want to see anyone innocent hurt, I would hardly cry if I heard that the sites where dangerous drugs were grown and prepared were demolished. Certainly, people in the drug trade are not shedding any tears for our young people, or their parents.

Hermitage
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Kush
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Post by Kush » Wed Feb 04, 2004 10:50 pm

The situation might be more complex than just bad people growing drugs and innocent misguided youth consuming them. Sometimes people do things coz' that's all they can do.
A good song to hear on this is Springsteen's 'Sinaloa Cowboys' on his Ghost of Tom Joad album.

p.s. I do not know enough about the issue. I could be wrong. But it is my gut reaction that such a course of action (bombing Colombia or California for that matter) will ultimately be unhelpful.
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh » Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:48 pm

It seems to me that the areas, from out of where the drugs [or their base], originate have as their cash crop the plants. To bomb the area would be to kill the locals who are living according to what they are able to do to earn a living. If you could isolate the ones who exploit them and glean the profits, you'd be coming closer to the real issue.
Hermitage
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Post by Hermitage » Thu Feb 05, 2004 1:14 am

I wouldn't rush to drop bombs either, unless, as in some imaginary world, one could guarantee that no innocent people--or almost none?--would be hurt. One thing is for sure: the fact that the "just say no" idea doesn't work.

Hermitage
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh » Thu Feb 05, 2004 5:57 am

You're right, Hermitage. The "Just Say No" was not the panacea.
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lightning
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Post by lightning » Thu Feb 05, 2004 6:25 am

Much of the music and poetry whcih brings you to this site would not be here if not for drugs. Does some good, does some harm, to paraphrase Mr. Cohen,
Moonlight
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Post by Moonlight » Thu Feb 05, 2004 4:16 pm

More harm than good. I can pretty much tell by the quality (yes, Lizzytysh...there's that word again) of the poems when Leonard was doped up.

M
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh » Thu Feb 05, 2004 4:42 pm

Was he speaking of drugs or alcohol in them :wink: ?
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Kush
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Post by Kush » Thu Feb 05, 2004 7:58 pm

Ah...Internet threads often take a life of their own :)
I certainly do not mean to suggest that Just Say No by itself is the the cure-all...but it can be one part of an effective fight. Also, I made that comment coz' there is a big difference between going to war with drug-producing neighbors and an intelligent fight conducted with the cooperation of these neighbors (i.e. their govts) and aimed at rooting out these sites while providing alternative employment etc etc. Its a question of supply and demand...you have poor neighbors who will do anything to make money and better living....you have rich kids (and not so rich kids) with time and money to waste. The infrasturcture and inherent poverty + corruption of these countries does not enable them to wage an effective fight against drugs but US can cooperate with them and provide money, personnel and technical help. And we do. Maybe it needs more direction or something else to make it effective but I dont beleive going to war with neighbors is the answer. The ties are far too strong. A visit to a border town like El Paso would convince you of that.

p.s. Isn't Jeb Bush's wife Colombian? And their daughter one of the rich kids we are talking of??
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Kush
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Post by Kush » Fri Feb 06, 2004 3:48 am

oops..it seems I was wrong...Columba Bush (nee Garnica Gallo) was born in Guanajato, Mexico and is Mexican not Colombian. Nevertheless my point was that of the cultural, economic and familial ties with neighbors.

Re' lightning's point: I don't know if there is any correlation between poetry and drugs. It may be entirely coincidental. Drugs of abuse produce altered artificial states via biochemical changes mostly leading to hallucinations. That in itself is not the problem but the fact that it becomes addictive. Even if it produces great poetry that may be too high a price to pay. Also, in an interview Bob Dylan said of his own drug use that he did not think it influenced his writing in any way but that it probably helped him get onstage and rock away night after night in the 70s. (he certainly seems like he was on drugs in Before the Flood and Hard Rain).
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