"Not a Jew"?????

[cracked bell]

Hi, I'm new to the board. I wonder if anyone has an answer to the following:

Does LC consider himself to be a Jew and/or a Jewish artist?

I had thought "yes" till I just read his poem from 1997 in which he wrote "Anyone who says/I'm not a Jew/is not a Jew," and then puts himself in that category.

I am a Jewish poet with a special interest in art (of any form-- musical, literary, visual, etc.) which is Jewish in some deep inner way that speaks to and is spoken to by the universal, even while not always being superficially "Jewish". Artists like LC obviously, author Areyh Lev Stollman, the late poet Dan Pagis, painter Ruth Weisberg, the Andy Statman Quartet, etc etc.

I am writing an essay on the topic in which I wish to discus LC, but I don't want to misrepresent him.

Thoughts?

[tomsakic]

Just read the poem - I don't see he puts himself in that category at all?!

Anyone who says
I'm not a Jew
is not a Jew
I'm very sorry
but this decision
is final
(Book of Longing, p. 158)

Well, maybe we just read the poem differently: my reading at first glance always was - whoever say that *I* ( = Leonard Cohen, the voice of the book/poem) am not a Jew, that person (who says that) is obviously not a Jew ( = doesn't know what he's speaking about, and what means being a Jew), so sorry, this decision (that *that* another person is not a Jew and doesn't have a clue) is final.

Now, of course, it can be simply, but with citation marks: Anyone who says "I am not a Jew" (meaning = himself, not I, Leonard Cohen, the poet) is not a Jew, and this decision is final (as that person decided so). Obviously quotation marks do make a difference, but maybe I'm wrong, as I'm not a native English speaker.
Also, this early version from 1997 does confuse a little bit, with Leonard's signature (in various personae): http://www.leonardcohenfiles.com/jew.html



In any case, you can be sure of this: as far I know, Leonard celebrates every Sabbath, back home in LA he does it with his kids and close friends (don't know for the tour, though). As he said many times, he always was happy with his religion, didn't look for the new one at Mt Baldy, and is old-fashioned Jew.

Also, don't forget about so many other poems and songs which clearly make him Jewish artist, much of his work being informed by the Holocaust. In the same book, you'll find i.e. Puppets.

[cracked bell]

Tom, that makes me happy!
I was hoping I was reading the poem wrong.

[UrPal]

Thanks for that erudite explanation of the two possible interpretations of the poem, Tom.

I have to admit that when I've read the poem I've naturally interpreted it in the first of the two alternatives, but that may be because I am not a Jew (that is, me [the reader], not LC [the writer])

I expect LC intended the poem to play on the ambiguity this discussion raises, and that it's a type of joke (a "play on words") as much as it is a poem.

It certainly seems "funny" in both senses of the word - i.e. quirky as well as comedic.

Reading it again though, and particularly noting the slight change to the ending from "I'm very sorry but this is final" (early draft) to "I'm very sorry but this decision is final" (BoL version), also made me wonder whether this might be an obtuse holocaust reference - i.e. final decision = final solution? That would certainly add an unexpectedly dark twist to the humour of the piece.

[Eskimo]

Does LC consider himself to be a Jew and/or a Jewish artist?

An interview linked here from 1994 might interest you.

[Hal E. Lujah]

Well, I read the poem as referring to himself. There is some ambiguity and I don't have time to go back to the context of it right now. I think that although he now celebrates the Sabbath, it is by no means obvious that he always has done so; in fact, it is highly dubious. He does come from a Jewish family with solid heritage and he does identify with the lineage of Aaron, as I recall. But, LC is a complex man, nonetheless. Zen, of course, is not a religion and does not replace his Judaism, except that being made a monk does, I think, require relinquishing prior religious identity, but I might be wrong. It might be for higher-ups. What I find even more intriguing is that after the five year stint at Baldy and his three decade relationship with Sensei, he then took off to Mumbai to hang with Balsekar, which is an odd thing to do, don't you think? Why would he look elsewhere at that particular time of all times? That would make for an interesting interview, if he would want to engage on that topic. I mean if the Roshi is the love of your life, as he implies, then why seek out Balsekar? I guess a second opinion. It seems relevant to this question of his Jewishood, since it raises a question about his Buddhismhood too, as well as the larger question of his sense of commitment to an ideology, which can be a good or bad thing, depending on how you see that. If this interview has taken place and I just have not seen it, please someone refer me. There is, of course, a sense in which Judaism and Buddhism are irreconcilable. In the former, the ego is always in dual relation with the Godhead. You don't become one with God or the Absolute. But, I don't know if anyone wants to go into this.
Hal

[Cate]

another simple interpretation could be whoever denies who he is, can not be who he is.
He also seems a bit cheeky here.

[UrPal]

Your simple interpretation reminds me of the exchange between Pilate and Jesus, Q "Are you the King of the Jews?" A "It is you who say I am".

I guess the poem is about the extent to which we as individuals are able to define ourselves or are defned by others/our behaviour/"external" factors, which seems to be reinforced by the several alternate signatures LC offers for himself in the draft poem posted on the Files.

The curious aspect of the poem is that we don't often define ourselves negatively - at least not in public - which is why, as a person with an Anglo-Scottish mix of Catholic and Protestant Christian ancestry, I would naturally interpret the poem as being one in which LC is interrogating himself rather than inviting me to interrogate myself (at least on a surface level).

For me, the question whether I am or am not a Jew would never arise. The answer is self-evident. And if I am asked in conversation, "what is your religion?", I wouldn't answer, "Well, I'm not a Jew, I'm not a Muslim, I'm not a Hindu, I'm not a Buddhist etc". I'd respond by cutting to the cahse and saying in positive terms what I thought I was.

On the other hand, for LC you might say, to borrow a perhaps unfortunate turn of phrase, his Jewishness is as plain as the nose on his face. His Jewish background would probably be one of the top five facts which are general public knowledge about him and 9 out of 10 media stories which provide biographical details about him would mention it. In his hands, a poem which might be read as asserting that "I'm not a Jew" becomes controversial where in mine it would not be so, and, to those for whom his ethnoreligious background is important, it might well come across, as is evident from cracked bell's initial approach to it, as a possible act of betrayal/desertion.

I assume that's why he has written the poem as "Anyone who says I'm not a Jew is not a Jew" rather than "Anyone who says I'm not a [singer] is not a [singer]" or whatever. The alternative might be equally debatable for some, but doesn't go so much to the root of how a person is defined and distinguished in society, despite it being his chosen occupation rather than his inheritance.

[cracked bell]

An interview linked here from 1994 might interest you.

Eskimo, that interview was fascinating. It exactly speaks to my question. I did have the sense on reading the poem that it was ironic or a koan of sorts, but I just wanted to be careful not to label him in a way he didn't accept.

There is, of course, a sense in which Judaism and Buddhism are irreconcilable. In the former, the ego is always in dual relation with the Godhead. You don't become one with God or the Absolute. But, I don't know if anyone wants to go into this.Hal

Hal, personally I agree with you, but I can understand how someone might ignore that and just go for the spiritual experience if they are not yet familiar with the spiritual practices of Judaism itself (as LC describes in the interview above). You might be interested in The Jew in the Lotus by Roger Kamenetz for these issues.

[Hal E. Lujah]

Cracked,
Yeah, I read the interview after my post. I agree with LC that Judaism loses untold young because it fails to address the spiritual dimensions. So many Israelis visit towns in India that they have learned Hebrew! That's wild. It's complex. I think that the marriage of Zen and Judaism works well to create more space, wisdom, heart. I just am concerned that at some juncture, Eastern thought, for the most part, does not agree that there is a real world and a personal God who is leading a Chosen people back to the homeland, etc. So, the two may go well, for awhile, and do more good than harm. In the final analysis it is impossible to get them together though, unless you create your own school, so to speak, but even then, I don't know how successful that would be. Don't forget, it's not totally defined what the tenets of Judaism are, and if one can depart from them and still consider oneself within the fold in a true sense. At this point I would have to know Kabbalah, which I don't. In many ways they can and do go together, so I don't wish to emphasize this negative. Hinduism is more challenging, what with the idols and all. Judaism is against idols, if nothing else, that's clear. Yet, the defense of idols exists, and actually makes sense, I think. So what if you use an image to help create a sense of reverence. YOu have to get to the essence of what the prohibition is all about, which is difficult, since you need a good teacher or book to get to that. There are even those who think the Kabbalah is unJewish, in that people relate to the sephirot as independent gods, or powers of God. It depends on how you define God, which is obviously somewhat problematic. It depends on what the Shema means; does it mean that there's only one God, or does it mean that all that exists is One in God, or is God? But, I think that got Spinoza excommunicated, so I still don't know. In sum, it is hard for me to see how a belief in a personal God, who intervenes in human history is compatible with a non-dual Absolute, in which the world is somewhat illusory, as is the ego and the personal God. The Greek god is not the same as the Jewish God, to say it another way. To say whether LC is a Jew or not takes all these things into account. He is a Jew by definition, since his mother was a Jew. But, if he no longer believes in the tenets of Judaism, as articulated by Maimonides, then perhaps he is a nominal Jew, or non-practicing Jew. It is confusing because Judaism is not onlyl belief but defined by birth circumstances. If one's mother is Jewish and father is not, he is Jewish. If vice versa he is not. Seems pretty arbitrary in a sense, if one is sure who the father is. So, my reading is that he at that moment decided not to define himself as a Jew. There really is no good discussion by LC that I have seen which goes into these issues with enough clarity to know what it is he's saying, but the 1994 interview is the best I have seen. My real problem is why he would jet off to Mumbai after 5 arduous years with Roshi; I am not against him doing it. I am just surprised that he would think this guy would have the answer, and not Roshi. I just want to know more about these things, not to judge LC by the way. I hope that much is clear. I sound critical, but that's just the computer.

Hal E.

[hydriot]

I took this delightful little poem to mean that however a Jewish person acts outwardly (e.g. Mount Baldy), inside he will always be a Jew, and that depth of commitment is not something anybody who is not a Jew will ever be able to understand.

Long long ago (late sixties or early seventies I think) Leonard expressed rather the opposite opinion, when he wrote enigmatically (can't remember the exact words): 'Only a Jew can be a real anti-semite'.

[Hal E. Lujah]

Hy, Hydriot,

Yes, the worst of the anit-semites are Jews. I see this all the time. Hitler was pretty good too, though. He was Jewish by his own definition, however. There are many reasons for this. It requires knowledge about the issues, which the vast majority have no interest in. Look at Simone Weil, for example. Why would a Jewish woman, considered a saint by the christians, be so against her own people? Intellectual honesty can account for part of it, but there's something more. I suppose living in France explains a lot of it too. A christian friend asked me a few years ago if Judaism was a religion or a diet, since they never read the Old Testament, and only see Jews eating Kosher. With that degree of total asininity, how can you really even hate the Jews?

But, getting back to LC, he says he never renounced his Judaism and I totally believe that. His lineage is clear and he never blamed his upbringing as do so many. Yet, I think he also feels the limitation of being seen as Jewish poet, a Jewish this , a Jewish that. He may have experimented with shedding the identity to various degrees. Or, alternatively, with expanding the identity! He clearly has said that real religion does not separate us, but should help us to appreciate others, with their differences. So, his seeking in Buddhist veins, in Hindu veins, is not a shirking of Judaism as he understands it; it is a deepening of the essence. However, from a halachic standpoint it is a turning away. It all depends on your hermeneutic approach to the Bible and what you think the wheat is from the chaff, the esoteric from the exoteric. And don't forget, religion is for man, not vice versa; LC is not going to ape some form for its own sake. He fully intends to embody the Truth, as it seems to him at the time. So, in that sense each is alone in their interpretation, and perhaps that's the real orthodoxy, to one's soul and not to external advice of the learned. So, in answering whether LC is a Jew or not, there is no one answer which would satisfy all. And don't forget, even the great Biblical figures were never described as perfect, far from it. They all had weaknesses, foibles, frailties. It's like asking if LC can sing or not. Some say yes, some say it is croaking and off-key at that. Who can say? Is he a folk singer, a country singer, a rock singer? LC is LC. I personally strongly feel that his music is so idiosyncratic, so his, that I hate any covers of it. But, so many disagree with me. Some say he is mediocre as a poet and singer, cleverly weaving images with little real depth, that his descriptions of his loves and hates is just that and adds nothing to art. One would have to discuss Shakespeare, I guess, and draw comparisons.

Hal

[cracked bell]

Hal,

An illuminating reply!

To push on, let me try to separate out few different issues here that may have gotten mixed up a bit by all of us.

First of all, Jewish tradition defines a person as Jewish if a) his mother is Jewish or b) if he has converted to Judaism. And once you're Jewish, there's no getting out of it, whether you are observant or not. And of course not only is LC as Jewish as you can get but also a "priest" of the ancient Temple (that's what Cohen means).

What's more subjective is whether an artist who is Jewish sees himself as a "Jewish artist," and his work as "Jewish art." And when the perception of the audience differs from that of the artist, there is another complication to consider.

Personally I find LC's work, as well as his spiritual quest, to be deeply Jewish. Many of the reasons for this are those written about by Paul Monk in his excellent article on this site, "UNDER THE SPELL OF STRANGER MUSIC: LEONARD COHEN'S LYRICAL JUDAISM." Not only are his songs with explicitly Jewish content Jewish, like "Who By Fire," but I see Jewish spirituality, morality, and longing underlying all his songs, even the most sexy and secular.

But whether or not it's fair to define another person against his wishes, it's obviously not respectful. So I just wanted to be wary of that, in case the poem meant "Don't define me!" But I think what all the excellent points in this discussion are making is that the poem is meant ironically.

-cb

[cracked bell]

Hi, just found another good article on this:http://www.jbooks.com/fiction/index/FI_Arnoff_Cohen.htm

[brightnow]

Another clue as to the meaning of the poem can be found in the web site:
http://www.leonardcohenfiles.com/jew.html
(This is very slightly different to the version in the book, I believe it is an earlier version.)

Leonard chose to sign the poem there by his Jewish name, and added his rightful title "priest of Israel" (="Cohen").

(By the way, he also chose to sign it by the title "Nightingale of the Sinai", referring to his active support of Israel during the 1973 war)