It Seemed The Better Way
Linmag I am indebted to you for an impressive explaination of lay v lie.
The part about hearing him speaking could very easily meant hearing his words thru the bible. However Elazar said that Jews don't believe in Jesus as Christians do. So either Leonard wrote the poem from a perspective of Christianity or it is to do with the world state at present.
The part about hearing him speaking could very easily meant hearing his words thru the bible. However Elazar said that Jews don't believe in Jesus as Christians do. So either Leonard wrote the poem from a perspective of Christianity or it is to do with the world state at present.
This poem is a very interesting one to me. But also puzzling.
It is very equivocal. "It seemed the better way...It sounded like the truth.
It is filled with doubt. "I wonder what it was... I wonder what it meant."
The last quatrain is very troubling. Is he trying to cover all the Christological bases but without any real belief? "Better hold my tongue...Better know my place...Cup of blood with everyone...Try to say the Grace."
The first three stanzas are understandable despite their ambiguity. But the last one is a real doozy.
Mr. Ed
It is very equivocal. "It seemed the better way...It sounded like the truth.
It is filled with doubt. "I wonder what it was... I wonder what it meant."
The last quatrain is very troubling. Is he trying to cover all the Christological bases but without any real belief? "Better hold my tongue...Better know my place...Cup of blood with everyone...Try to say the Grace."
The first three stanzas are understandable despite their ambiguity. But the last one is a real doozy.
Mr. Ed
Well, that's what I get for not being able to complete my thought before rushing out the door for an appt. 50 miles away. My other line of thinking as to who the "him" was, was that it could be a "period piece," as though the perspective was the speaking occurring in Christ's time. The other was that it is "the Word" as in Christ is alive today through the Word, so hearing the Word, would be synonymous with hearing Him [Christ and G..d through Christ]. In this case, would it be akin to the first time "I" heard the Christian Word?
Dang! Now it's time to go to bed...so gotta stop again! And some have said things here that I agree with, and really like! I can really appreciate the observations you've made, Mr. Ed. [It's also nice to see this, your second, serious post.]
Dang! Now it's time to go to bed...so gotta stop again! And some have said things here that I agree with, and really like! I can really appreciate the observations you've made, Mr. Ed. [It's also nice to see this, your second, serious post.]
i haven't been here for a week or so, and i just read the poem --- and LOVED it!
i think this is very personal poem. i think it simply tells the tale of a religious person in our time.
the When first I heard him speak line is probably refering to his youth, when he first heard quotes from The Book, and it all seemed right: let's all just be nice to each other and we'll all be happy.
but he discovers that world doesn't work that way. turning the other cheek will only get you slaped again, and Church (institution) builds great temples and collects money (it blesses the rich rather than meek), so he wonders, now that he is old - what did it all mean (both his and christ's lives). this is a place where he wonders is there anything to hope for... will christ rise?
and the poem concludes with something i regard as his best writting ever!
the only smart thing to do in a world like this is to take his place in a chain: shut up and have a glass of vine with all the other sheep.
i have to stay here some more (why are my posts always so long? i gotta be darn boring)! i think the word everyone in 'Cup of blood with everyone
' is important. does it mean he thinks he shouldn't accept other religions, but does so because it is a commonly accepted way of behaving, so he has a cup of blood (glass of vine - we know christ turned vine into his blood), or does he refer to blood of innocent victims of wars and violence?
and to try to say the grace would probably mean: i should now say the grace, because everybody in my family does so, so it is a way i should behave also.
--- i'll come back here and write my new thoughts when i sleep over this WONDERFUL poem.[/i]
i think this is very personal poem. i think it simply tells the tale of a religious person in our time.
the When first I heard him speak line is probably refering to his youth, when he first heard quotes from The Book, and it all seemed right: let's all just be nice to each other and we'll all be happy.
but he discovers that world doesn't work that way. turning the other cheek will only get you slaped again, and Church (institution) builds great temples and collects money (it blesses the rich rather than meek), so he wonders, now that he is old - what did it all mean (both his and christ's lives). this is a place where he wonders is there anything to hope for... will christ rise?
and the poem concludes with something i regard as his best writting ever!
the only smart thing to do in a world like this is to take his place in a chain: shut up and have a glass of vine with all the other sheep.
i have to stay here some more (why are my posts always so long? i gotta be darn boring)! i think the word everyone in 'Cup of blood with everyone
' is important. does it mean he thinks he shouldn't accept other religions, but does so because it is a commonly accepted way of behaving, so he has a cup of blood (glass of vine - we know christ turned vine into his blood), or does he refer to blood of innocent victims of wars and violence?
and to try to say the grace would probably mean: i should now say the grace, because everybody in my family does so, so it is a way i should behave also.
--- i'll come back here and write my new thoughts when i sleep over this WONDERFUL poem.[/i]
I can follow your reasoning according to the words, and how you interpret them, jurica. The only problem i have is that i don't see Leonard as being Christian, or as having really followed that path. I don't know that the Jewish faith shares the Communion tradition. I can't make the poem relate to Zen or any India Indian traditions. It's hard to fathom Leonard sending out at Easter a poem that denigrates Christianity. I "want" to make it be a comment on this war, but don't know how I can jockey it all into place to do that. I really appreciate reading everyone's input and agree with some interpretations of particular lines [even though they don't necessarily support where I'm at ~ or "trying" to be at ~ with the poem overall]. So, for me, the jury's still out with what it really means or refers to....and even now, I only have time to comment vs. do my own interpretation.
No, you are not boring, at all, Jurica!
No, you are not boring, at all, Jurica!
Jurica, your post is very interesting not boring at all. That was my opinion of the cup of blood also, as referring to the communion wine.
I don't have any idea what his belief is, but in a lot of his songs he makes religious referrences, and somehow I think he has studied and understands most religions if not all and has questions like most of us do.
I don't have any idea what his belief is, but in a lot of his songs he makes religious referrences, and somehow I think he has studied and understands most religions if not all and has questions like most of us do.
Linda
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Just some passing thoughts...
The cup of blood - in Christian Mythology there is another Cup filled with "the blood of the lamb": the Holy Grail. (Leonard referred to this in another poem called "Promise", also published on the "Blackening Pages"...)
In my mind two cups overlap... And allusions to earlier texts appear as well... I hope I can find the time soon to follow some of the strains mentioned in this thread.
I agree, Linda: he seems to have studied all religions, or the whole body of religion.
And, Jurica, your post's not boring, but highly interesting...
Tom
The cup of blood - in Christian Mythology there is another Cup filled with "the blood of the lamb": the Holy Grail. (Leonard referred to this in another poem called "Promise", also published on the "Blackening Pages"...)
In my mind two cups overlap... And allusions to earlier texts appear as well... I hope I can find the time soon to follow some of the strains mentioned in this thread.
I agree, Linda: he seems to have studied all religions, or the whole body of religion.
And, Jurica, your post's not boring, but highly interesting...
Tom
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- Location: Wales
saint paul said that if the resurrection did not really happen, then christians were to be pitied above all men (I corinthians 15:19).
what if this poem is written by him, before he saw christ rise (if he rised)? he was saul, greek, and he was against christianity before he heard jesus speak. then he thought: hey, it might be a better way, but when jesus was trield to death, paul denied him three times.
perhaps this is what he wonders: what was the meaning of rising up with love that jesus spoke about (which will turn out to be physical resurrection), when he was laid down, dead.
so, we have him doubting in jesus... he'll drink blood (wine) with the rest of his tribe, he'll try to say the grace, but he no longer belives. he is to be pitied above all men, and therefore writes this lament.
what happened next, i do not know... perhaps christ rose (and this would explain why this song was given to us for eastern), or paul lied that he saw him to hide his failure in life (then the fact this was given as a eastern present would be dark irony)...
what if this poem is written by him, before he saw christ rise (if he rised)? he was saul, greek, and he was against christianity before he heard jesus speak. then he thought: hey, it might be a better way, but when jesus was trield to death, paul denied him three times.
perhaps this is what he wonders: what was the meaning of rising up with love that jesus spoke about (which will turn out to be physical resurrection), when he was laid down, dead.
so, we have him doubting in jesus... he'll drink blood (wine) with the rest of his tribe, he'll try to say the grace, but he no longer belives. he is to be pitied above all men, and therefore writes this lament.
what happened next, i do not know... perhaps christ rose (and this would explain why this song was given to us for eastern), or paul lied that he saw him to hide his failure in life (then the fact this was given as a eastern present would be dark irony)...