not quite the end?

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Geoffrey
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Re: not quite the end?

Post by Geoffrey » Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:59 pm

B4real wrote:
>Adam has a habit of sometimes shortening titles, so that could be The Captain

i cannot believe what i am reading, because adam would surely not be such a lazy writer. a person might save ink and time by omitting words they deem unimportant, but adam has so much respect for his father that abbreviating his work in such a cavalier fashion, and subsequently allowing it to be published, would be sacrilege. i know some people say 'less is more', but to desecrate leonard's inheritance so irresponsibly by cutting corners like that would be nothing short of contemptuous. no, if you look further up on adam's list you will see that he writes 'thanks for the dance' and 'happens to the heart', proof that he has no problem writing the word 'the'.
DennisBerlin
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Re: not quite the end?

Post by DennisBerlin » Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:43 pm

I'm not sure where this reasoning shall point to.

You can clearly see on that said list that he also wrote "Santiago", "Torn", "Hills" and "Hummingbird".
What about that?

Also, if you take a look at the photograph on the back side of the "Old Ideas" booklet, you see the track list written by Leonard, where he also shortened some titles like "Thanks Dance" and "Show Me".

It's a common habit people do. Perhaps you don't, but people do things like that in personal notes.

So again, I'm not sure where this reasoning "Adam wouln't forget a 'the' " shall point to, sorry.
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Geoffrey
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Re: not quite the end?

Post by Geoffrey » Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:25 pm

DennisBerlin wrote:
>It's a common habit people do. Perhaps you don't, but people do things like that in personal notes.

all right, but an inquisitive mind might ask why it is so, and what makes this common habit so prevalent. you state a fact, while offering no explanation. it is difficult to see how it could be for practical reasons, as the time saved would be so minimal, and nobody could be so parsimonious as to economise on ink in this way. it seems you are suggesting that such an idiosyncratic writing style is the result of a psychological disorder.
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Re: not quite the end?

Post by DennisBerlin » Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:48 pm

I wouldn't say disorder, I myself do it too when it comes to writing practical notes just for myself. It indeed has to do with saving time of course, but the reasons may depend on the given circumstaces. -

Like just keeping a quick note because you have to do something else right now (I admit in the circumstances given to the both lists discussing that may rather not be the case), althogh we do not know exactly under which circumstances those two lists were written. As for a quick memo/oversight I can clearly see the practical effect of this kind of shorthand; but of course the time saved by omitting little words like articles or prepositions is not much.

Yet, it somehow is a common with lots of people. As to psychological or neuroscientific explanations, there is something called transactive memory* which is a physical form (written down) of the cued memory processing, one of the four mechanisms how memorizing works.

So just memorizing a cue word (or writing it down) sometimes is enough to keep the thoght fixed; because the rest of your memory is able to fill out the rest when ever you need it. Perhaps it's not rational in terms of really saving time, but it's a common process yet.


- But shortly back to that title "[The] Captain" -
B4real wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:15 am
(...) so that could be The Captain as previously mentioned from the VP album. If so, as far as I know, it has never been played in concert but some verses were recited in Boston, New York & Philadelphia in 1985. There are plenty of verses to choose from as quoted by Leonard in that same year, "I began this song four years ago and it has 30 or 40 verses".
in that case this new text indeed might be something else derived from that song.
As far as I know (sorry, can't remember right now where I read it, but I guess it's been somewhere on this forum) there was also a song that should be called "Still Into That" on which Leonard was working once, derived from the verses of "A Thousand Kisses Deep." Really a pity it never came as far as to be in a state ready for reciting/ recording it for TFTD.



Greets,
Dennis

_________________

* though transactive memory is rather a technique of cultural memory; but it's working is similar
Last edited by DennisBerlin on Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Geoffrey
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Re: not quite the end?

Post by Geoffrey » Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:09 am

thank you, dennisberlin. i thought that was an excellent response to my message, and i may come back to it when time permits. meanwhile, let us return to an earlier post, something that has been bothering me . . .

its4inthemorning wrote:
>I guess all of this is Adam's call.

we must remember that leonard had two children, and both are alive and well. america is not saudi arabia, it is wrong to leave his daughter out of the equation just because she's female. i can't imagine how she must feel.

don't forget also that michael chaves includes himself in any decision making when he says " 'we' may address it down the road."
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Re: not quite the end?

Post by DennisBerlin » Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:48 pm

Geoffrey,

Personally I don't think it's that much about leaving out Lorca, I guess it's rather because Adam has musical experience and also was working close with his dad on YWID, so he may have more insight into what Leonard's process and demand were when it comes to a perfect result.

And remember that Leonard himself was working and polishing very long until he was happy with a text / track. So I think it's good to trust Adam when he wasn't quite okay with that particular track either being ready or not fitting on the album.

As for Lorca once again, I don't know how she feels being left out of the process (or if she was left out at all) – I don't know much about her, (which is quite fine, every person has the right of privacy) I mean to remember she runs an antique shop in LA? So perhaps she just trusts her brother to nail their fathers' left work in music.

I think it's too much guessing in here, as we cannot be sure of anything to judge properly.
Geoffrey wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:09 am
don't forget also that michael chaves includes himself in any decision making when he says " 'we' may address it down the road."
Right, so I think it's rather a decision that will be made with all artists having worked/working on this track. With Adam perhaps as a kind of "Captain" (sorry, couldn't resist) indeed as to having the final word. Even though I imagine it as a rather teamworking process.

By the way, in one of the first more solid statements on the progressing of the album I mean to remember that a first word was about it consisting of 12 not 9 songs (unfortunately I can't find that passage in the forum's history anymore), so that could mean that there indeed are actually 3 left songs; perhaps 2 of them fell out very early and that "Captain" track stuck to it longer on the way of processing (which would make sense in case there would be a single release of the "Captain" track later as hinted by Chaves. If not only downloadeable, a physical single usually contains of more than just 1 track). - But again, steering in the dangerous realms of pure guessing, especially with Adam's statement that there are no more songs left...


Dennis
its4inthemorning
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Re: not quite the end?

Post by its4inthemorning » Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:52 pm

Geoffrey,

When I said "I guess this of is all Adam's call," I was actually going to add more, such as "the call of Adam and others that Leonard had a high level of trust in." I suppose I got lazy, and when one is writing and commits laziness, ambiguity thrives.

As long as I am in a mea culpa mood, I should also admit that I was very imprecise when I posted "barking up a different tree if really sub-par work was released." By sub-par work I was not referring to completed or mostly-completed songs that might not be received well on their artistic merits, I was thinking about things such as songs that had barely reached their embryonic phases, slightly different preliminary versions of songs already released, and cover versions of other artists' songs that Leonard had perhaps only sung once as a lark--items that would tend to make me cringe.

As far as "Captain" goes, Bev's amazing memory revealed that Cohen said he had written 30 or 40 verses for "The Captain." The released version only included 7 to 13 (depending on what one considers a verse to be), which leaves a lot of verses unaccounted for. However, I am not sure how one would use those verses assuming they had all been recorded? Would they be added to the originals to make one mammoth song, or would a new verse selection be made from all those available? I've always felt "The Captain" should have received more attention and acclaim than it did, it is hard to believe that it was never performed in concert. "The Captain" seems like it could have been a candidate for inclusion on the final tours, I wonder if it ever was listed as an optional song on any of the setlists for those tours.

4
2010 DECEMBER 10 - CAESARS COLOSSEUM, LAS VEGAS / 2012 SEPTEMBER 28 - L'OLYMPIA, PARIS
2012 OCTOBER 3 - PALAU SANT JORDI, BARCELONA / 2012 DECEMBER 13 - K-ROCK CENTRE, KINGSTON
2013 APRIL 6 - RADIO CITY MUSIC HALL, NEW YORK CITY / 2013 JULY 9 - PIAZZA NAPOLEONE, LUCCA
2017 NOVEMBER 4-8 - MONTREAL "TOWER OF SONG" CELEBRATION - RIP, YOU GOT ME SINGING!
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Geoffrey
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Re: not quite the end?

Post by Geoffrey » Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:25 pm

hello. there are some things being addressed to me here that deserve a response, and i am eager to do so when i get time. writing in english is a struggle for me, i am far from fluent, and not very good at staying on topic. it's as if i need to keep moving onto something new, and that is a very frustrating handicap. leonard once said "i have an interminable interest in self improvement, a desire to be more acceptable to myself" - he took the words right out of my mouth, if i may quote a 'meat loaf' song.

adam is a talented artist, i've never met him (lorca was the one so often with her father when touring norway, beautiful lady) but i've seen many of his videos, a great performer. it cannot be easy being an ambitious son of someone famous - like carrying a rucksack laden with gold that is so heavy it could cripple you. one cannot but have respect for such a man, especially after producing this latest album - my favourite of leonard's entire catalogue.

-g
oldfriend28
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Re: not quite the end?

Post by oldfriend28 » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:40 pm

Thank you for this. I am just so pleased Adam has been able to organise this latest album (from his father). I agree that being the son of such a famous, successful father, would not make it easy for him. I look forward to buying this album when I can. Haven't read through all the posts people have put up, but I for one, am grateful to Adam.
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Geoffrey
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Re: not quite the end?

Post by Geoffrey » Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:03 am

oldfriend28 wrote:
>I look forward to buying this album when I can.

i understand. it's not like the old days when you could just go into a record shop and buy the thing - those places have more or less disappeared. everything can now be downloaded from the internet, and if one is computer savvy it is not even necessary to pay.

many of us have a need for an idol, and to collect items - for multiple reasons. a poster called 'dennisberlin' impressed me greatly when he(?) - earlier in this thread - overlapped into this area when mentioning 'psychological or neuroscientific explanations'. it would have been interesting to delve more into that subject, but my day is so crammed full that i am forced to prioritise. in any case i would surely end up a thousand miles from where i started. my input is irrelevant anyway, because one can receive concise information and knowledge simply by going to google or youtube and writing 'limbic system', 'nucleus accumbens', 'amygdala' (or whatever), in the search boxes.

the bottom line is that i only have a few of leonard's CDs in physical form. The most precious of them is one he gave to me covered in his handwriting - a surprise gift. what a kind and lovely gentleman he was to so many of us. he will always be missed.
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Joe Way
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Re: not quite the end?

Post by Joe Way » Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:30 am

Jean Fournell wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:26 pm
"The Little Prince" Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Chapter 23

"Good morning," said the little prince.

"Good morning," said the merchant.

This was a merchant who sold pills that had been invented to quench thirst. You need only swallow one pill a week, and you would feel no need of anything to drink.

"Why are you selling those?" asked the little prince.

"Because they save a tremendous amount of time," said the merchant. "Computations have been made by experts. With these pills, you save fifty-three minutes in every week."

"And what do I do with those fifty-three minutes?"

"Anything you like…"

"As for me," said the little prince to himself, "if I had fifty-three minutes to spend as I liked, I should walk at my leisure toward a spring of fresh water."
Thank you, Jean for a very nice parable.

This and my wonderful enjoyment of Geoffrey's observations which I've had the pleasure of observing since I first discovered that I wasn't alone in my love of LC by the friendship we developed at the old Leonard Cohen Newsgroup that I discovered in the late 1990's. I have a little ruder story/joke that I hope isn't misinterpreted.

It involves an Iowa pig farmer. Wisconsin where I live and Iowa share portions of a common border and as is not uncommon in border rivalries, there is a playful banter that takes place between us. Hog farming is an important culture in Iowa.

A traveling salesman is driving through Iowa when he sees an Iowa pig farmer lifting up his pigs so they can reach the apples on his apple tree. This takes him aback and he calls out to the farmer, "Why don't you pick the apples, put them on the ground so the pigs can eat them there?"

The farmer replies quite testily, "Why would I do that?"

The salesman taken even more aback stammers, "Well it would save time?"

The farmer disgustingly replies, "Well, what's time to a pig?"

With that said, I hope we can get as much of Leonard's stuff as we can.
"Say a prayer for the cowboy..."
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lizzytysh
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Re: not quite the end?

Post by lizzytysh » Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:37 am

Thanks to all the contributors on this thread. I enjoyed reading the whole of it.
"Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken."
~ Oscar Wilde
yogi
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Re: not quite the end?

Post by yogi » Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:53 am

2020 Release! Songs I want on next album... :D
1. Feels So Good (live)
2. A Thousand Kisses Deep (early demo version)
3. Book of Longing (KCRW Demo)
4. Puppets (KCRW Demo)
5. Two Worlds (Sony Commercial)
...what else?
hadley
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Re: not quite the end?

Post by hadley » Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:29 pm

yogi wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:53 am
2020 Release! Songs I want on next album... :D
1. Feels So Good (live)
2. A Thousand Kisses Deep (early demo version)
3. Book of Longing (KCRW Demo)
4. Puppets (KCRW Demo)
5. Two Worlds (Sony Commercial)
...what else?
6. La Manic
7. Never Got To Love You
8. Never Gave Nobody Trouble

No harm in dreaming 8)
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