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Aid to tsunami victims: Greece 0.12-USA 0.07 in permille GNP

Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:59 pm
by Dem
Collin Powell: "USA not stingy"


Note: Numbers as of January 6th 2005

In case you find economics/maths too difficult here is a simpler equation:

USA government aid to tsunami victims ($350m)=cost of war in Iraq for 2.5 DAYS (estimated cost of Iraq war: $1 billion per week)

For more details and numbers see below:

Humanitarian aid to tsunami victims as of January 6 2005 :

(calculations are based on the list of major donors as it is posted on the Wikipedia : ... jor_donors )


Total sum of aid = 21.6m USD

Population= 10,647,529

Per capita= $ 2.02

In permille of GNP= 0.12


Total sum of aid = 733m USD

Population= 293,027,571

Per capita= $ 2.5

In permille of GNP= USA 0.07

(population estimations are according to the CIA factbook

(even if you look at the per capita amount of humanitarian aid i.e Greece=$2.02 /citizen, USA $2.5/citizen and take into consideration the size and the wealth of the two countries you can make your own conclusions)

Worthwile note: Of the total 21.6m $, the 19.9m were through private donations made during a TV charity marathon which included the auction of articles such as commemorative items from the Athens Olympic Games and the Euro 2004 event, as well as the fountain pen of the President of Hellenic Democracy, Mr. C. Stefanopoulos.

The Greek government offered the rest 1.7m$ (besides the other help that has already been sent to the struck area, i.e. C-130 airplanes with relief aid, medical and rescue teams etc).

More benefit gigs will take place in the next days in an effort to raise even more money for southern Asia struck areas with more auctions, charity concerts etc.

Clearly another case of citizens outdoing their government (as in most of the other countries)!


Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:26 pm
by Midnight

Trust you to turn a human catastrophe into a political swipe at the USA on this forum. Is there anything you won't use to express your hatred of the USA?

You are a real piece of work.


Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:58 pm
by tom.d.stiller

though your numbers and calculations might be okay, they are irrelevant, and bringing them up the way you did is an abuse of the cataclysm and its victims.

Why are they irrelevant? Because there are two things that really count now:

1. Immediate help.
2. Continuity in helping the survivors reestablish a stable and viable situation.

Immediate help is given by an overwhelming numbers of NGOs and governments, and it's cheap to point fingers at anyone helping.

No one is able to say anything about how things will turn out in the long run. But at least from their economic potential the US will be able to grant support when all private donators stopped caring, and most other countries had to reduce their engagement. You don't know the future better than I do, so don't judge.


Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 10:36 pm
by Bobbie
Very good reply, Tom. I would add to it, but I couldn't say it any better, nor be half so eloquent, so I will let it stand as is. I have known Dem a long time (I quite like him, and in fact, we served together on the Hydra committee, so I got to meet him and spend some time with him).. but lately he is starting to infuriate me with his constant quibbling and hate mongering re: USA and all Americans in general. He appears to have an air of superiority about himself and his country/countrymen that almost borders on delusions of grandeur.

Dem, as long as you are counting, why don't you go to Sri Lanka and do some work there... maybe you'd work off some steam.

"I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore!" (I'm gonna call you on it every single time I see you do this, Dem.)

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 5:30 am
by mdidier
does Dem live in Greece?

I say, let the UN take some of that 2.5% they skimmed off the top of the FoodForOil scheme..... should add another half billion to the pot....

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 6:41 am
by Tchocolatl
Taking action is not just a question of big amount of money. What a strange idea! :roll:

Did you ever see such a boat at a marathon? :D

For example.

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 9:52 am
by tom.d.stiller
Thanks for the link, Tchocolatl. I read there:
The Navy deployed the USNS Mercy in an imaginative way, utilizing a creative approach to provide the type and level of care that will be needed to aid the tsunami victims. There is an opportunity to configure the Mercy with a humanitarian assistance crew - which might be staffed significantly by nongovernmental organizations and people that have significant medical capability and can provide relief in other forms.
I, who have been bashed for US bashing when I dared criticize the current administration so often, think this is the right approach. Later, however, the Navy will have to withdraw, or the people, in their majority Islamic, will have second thoughts on their presence.

Those who pray, pray for the victims and the helpers.


Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 6:05 pm
by Dem
The Quality of Generosity
by Rahul Mahajan

Courtesy of the Washington Post, an update on aid pledges:
To aid victims of the tsunami, Australia has pledged $810 million, Germany $674 million and Japan $500 million. The European Union on Thursday announced a pledge of $466 million. The United States has offered $350 million, in addition to a significant military rescue mission.
So, the EU's allocation, over and above those of its member states, dwarfs that of the United States. And Australia, whose 2003 GDP was 4.8% that of the U.S., has pledged well over twice as much.

This reminds me of an appearance by the disgusting Andrew Natsios, director of USAID on the News Hour with Jim Lehrer on December 30. At the time, the U.S. pledge was $35 million, but Natsios defended the generosity of the United States:
NATSIOS: Well, it's not a matter of whether it's essential. We do that traditionally. While there have been some controversies over this, the statistics show, internationally accepted statistics, that in the last year that we have for '03, the United States gave 40% of all government assistance for international humanitarian aid for all countries in the world. So we're the largest donor by far, and I would say 40% of the total given, it's $2.4 billion, it's a lot of money.

IFILL: We're also the richest country by far.

NATSIOS: We are.

IFILL: So when. I guess there is a group called the Center for global Development that says that 40% of the relief aid boils down to about two cents a day per American. Is that generous enough?

NATSIOS: Well, I would say that 40% of the requirement worldwide and $2.4 billion is very generous. How much it is per American seems to me to be irrelevant.
Gwen Ifill tried, feebly, to press the point by referencing U.N. official Jan Egeland's remark about the stinginess of the Western nations:
NATSIOS: Those numbers don't add up. What they do is they use a European formula, which we've never used in the United States in 55 years, which is to use a percentage of our Gross National Product. The reason that people quote that is because in Europe it's been used as a standard, but our economy grows so much faster than the Japanese or the European economy that we would never catch up...

The formula Natsios is talking about is usually pegged at 0.7% of GDP for foreign aid. The U.S. is just about at 0.2% after significant increases in the past few years (through the Millennium Challenge Account, an attempt for the U.S. to impose conditionalities without working through multilateral agencies like the WB and IMF), although the bulk of that is actually military aid to countries like Israel and Egypt.

But note the really remarkable line: "our economy grows so much faster than the Japanese or the European economy that we would never catch up." This is no mere spin, but rather a major philosophical breakthrough: Andrew Natsios's version of Zeno's paradox.

Readers of this blog are no doubt aware that in general the real question in First World-Third World relations is not the degree of generosity from First to Third but the degree of extortion and exploitation from Third to First. Even so, the discourse on America's putative generosity is revealing. Needless to say, Ifill did not challenge Natsios's remarkably stupid statement.

Posted at 9:48 pm

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 6:44 pm
by Tchocolatl
I am not candid or naïve in that matter.

I've just heard a much interesting interview of Vincent Hugeux, reporter of L'Express magazine, he was doing a very fine anlysis of the political strategies behind the aid states (U.S., Japan, etc) gives to the victims of the stunamis.

This I do not care. He said that de Gaulle said "The state has no friend, only interest". I know that, you know that. Everybody knows that.

The state is not everything.

It rests that real people need real help and that real people are willing to help them. It states can help in their search of power, well!! Just fine.

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 6:50 pm
by Tchocolatl
About money : Think twice and you'll see clearly that money does not exist. It means nothing. It is just a symbol and a vehicule of something else. (Orgonon???? :lol: ) Well, nothing else that what human beings are making it to be. In this regard, yes, oh! yes! I would trust a prayer much more than money to support people. Imagine a lot of money but no voluntaries and organizations? Just a pile of waste paper.

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 9:08 pm
by mdidier
let me rephrase the question: on what planet does Dem live? (wonder why he hides his location and nationality)..... probably the one giving the most $$$ per citizen, as if money were the total solution. Transport systems are equally important in this effort..... it seems the US Military is bringing relief materials faster than the ground crews can handle them....

It always amazes me that there are people like Dem who hate America so much that America cannot do anything right; America probably saved him and his ancestors from some tyrant.....

jealousy and envy are rampant in these posts....

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:18 pm
by Tim

I don't think anyone's in any doubt about Dem's nationality or location, and I don't believe he's ever tried to hide it, or would want to. While I don't agree with his sniping at the US on this particular issue (as I don't agree with your sniping at the UN), you might want to consider recent Greek history with your 'America probably saved him and his ancestors from some tyrant'. Far from America doing this, their(your) government supported 'some tyrant' when the CIA backed the military coup that gave Greece a 'tyrannical' dictatorship from '67-'74 (I think Dem would have been born in this period). You might care to consider how this would have coloured your view of the USA if you'd been born during that period...

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:23 pm
by mdidier
I was talking to Dem.... not Tom...

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:28 pm
by Tim
you appear to be mistaken about what a forum is; you were talking to everyone, not just Dem, Tom, Tim (there is a difference, please note) or any other individual.

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 10:32 am
by tom.d.stiller
Tim wrote:you appear to be mistaken about what a forum is; you were talking to everyone, not just Dem, Tom, Tim (there is a difference, please note) or any other individual.
There's a difference indeed, of course. Rowing the boat together, kepinig the same direction today, Tim and I might well disagree on another topic next week..

And Tim's right. You're not talking to Dem, or to "Tom" or to Tim or to me. The nature of the forum is: you're talking - virtually - to the whole world, Marcel.

I hope that your abilty to judge in political issues far exceeds your ability to distinguish between different members of this forum. Someone who can't tell Tim from me, or maybe Tom Sakic from tom.d.stiller, really shouldn't be caught bashing the U.N.

Just try to think instead of falling in love with what you believe to be your peers.