What to do with the Politics?

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efc

Re: What to do with the Politics?

Post by efc » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:16 pm

John the Shorts

I'm responding to different points in several posts, and you've responded by repeating all 8 posts. I'm sure even you agree that I was entitled to 1 reply, so I take it you object to only 7.
efc

Re: What to do with the Politics?

Post by efc » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:19 pm

B4real wrote: All I have to say is that this is Jarkko's site and he can do with it what he wants. He has very democratically (politically) asked our opinions but he doesn't have to do what we say.
That of course is entirely correct. For my part I am expressing an opinion, an opinion that has been requested. It's also an opinion that has been informed by how I believe my posts have been unfairly dealt with. Jarkko will do what he considers appropriate.
efc

Re: What to do with the Politics?

Post by efc » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:21 pm

Cate wrote:
efc wrote: Looks as though the consensus is against you, and include me in the consensus.
Interesting interpretation of the posts. You certainly see things in a unique way as I've not seen a single post 'against' Jarkko just friendly people trying to help problem solve what seems to be becoming a headache to him. Make sure you don’t include me in your eyeballed ‘consensuses’ for without hesitation I would stand firmly behind our considerate and thoughtful host who has made all of us welcome here – even those who show little consideration or respect themselves.
Jarkko is thinking of down away with Politics, as a section, and most people who have replied, are against that. I don't see how Jarkko's comments amount to his having a "headache" about the issue.
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Re: What to do with the Politics?

Post by Alsiony » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:40 pm

efc wrote:
Cate wrote:
efc wrote: Looks as though the consensus is against you, and include me in the consensus.
Interesting interpretation of the posts. You certainly see things in a unique way as I've not seen a single post 'against' Jarkko just friendly people trying to help problem solve what seems to be becoming a headache to him. Make sure you don’t include me in your eyeballed ‘consensuses’ for without hesitation I would stand firmly behind our considerate and thoughtful host who has made all of us welcome here – even those who show little consideration or respect themselves.
Jarkko is thinking of down away with Politics, as a section, and most people who have replied, are against that. I don't see how Jarkko's comments amount to his having a "headache" about the issue.
Well there is obviously some relatively serious bother about it, or else surely the question would not have been raised for debate in the first place?
Further, it seems an obvious and un-required comment, when it is said that
Jarkko will do what he considers appropriate.

Well -he is running this forum afterall!
But the happy difference is, that instead of signing into the forum to find a news item entitled 'Scheduled forum changes- the politics section is being axed' (for example), here we have a referendum of sorts taking place, atleast an opinion poll ahead of any decisions being made.

Whatever decision is to be made on it all in the end, the very existence of this thread itself, simply induces further confidence that this forum is being operated in a thoughful and appropriate manner.
Something that I for one greatly appreciate.
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Re: What to do with the Politics?

Post by B4real » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:54 pm

Why don't we just run a "Yes"/"No" poll ?
It doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to B4real ~ me
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Re: What to do with the Politics?

Post by Cate » Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:48 pm

Alsiony wrote: Whatever decision is to be made on it all in the end, the very existence of this thread itself, simply induces further confidence that this forum is being operated in a thoughful and appropriate manner.
very true!
efc wrote: Jarkko is thinking of down away with Politics, as a section, and most people who have replied, are against that. I don't see how Jarkko's comments amount to his having a "headache" about the issue.
Hi Rob, I think we both made assumptions. To me having to tidy up threads and listening to grumping sounds like something that would give me a headache - mind you my status as a wife and a mother (7 & 9 year old boys) might effect my perception. Now your ability to know what Jarkko is thinking is impressive, but my guess is that you are also assuming but I'm not sure why you've come to that conclusion.
Jarkko clearly said
I don't want to close the section totally, but we could introduce some other methods. What about merging all new Israel-threads to just one, and all messages about US politics also to one.
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Re: What to do with the Politics?

Post by seadove » Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:53 pm

I guess if we are thinking of deleting the politics section we might as well delete the "everything else" section. :?
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Re: What to do with the Politics?

Post by GinaDCG » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:05 pm

To me this is not a question of yes or no, but of a grey area - "how much?"

Remember the oft-quoted metaphor (or would that be analogy?) by Oliver Wendall Holmes: Free speech does not give you the right to shout "Fire!" in a crowded theater?

I do not wish to offer any implicit, or explicit criticism -- but I'm having difficulties in framing this point in a way that will not imply criticism to some of my fellow Forum members.

I do not, have not, and probably never will manage a Forum such as this one. I have no idea how much time, effort or expense is involved. I am grateful for Jarkko for the time and effort he selflessly donates to us all.

But might it not be an imposition to open up multiple threads within a short period of time on similar -- IMHO VERY similar topics? Might it not be an imposition to ask Jarkko to provide the space to maintain a thread of 120 pages which consists overwhelmingly of back-and-forths between only 2 members (True, this thread has 14K views, but again --- does it justify the time and cost of maintenance?)

Since, to repeat myself, I know little about the time and expense involved in maintaining this Forum I do not have answers to these questions.

But in addition to raising questions about Forum rules regarding censorship and free speech, we should also be sensitive to the technical issues of Forum maintenance and strive to be gracious guests for our gracious host.

If the current format of multiple threads on similar political subjects has become a burden, then let's reform it! It's not a question of censorship so much as a question of practicality.
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Re: What to do with the Politics?

Post by Byron » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:55 pm

Politics (power) has been with us since we lived in caves and the biggest brute ruled the tribe the way he wanted to.
Politics exists. It cannot be cast to one side like some unwanted trash. If people don't want to engage in political discussion the answer is as simple as it gets............don't come into this section of the Forum.
When I do not want to watch a television programme I either switch the television off or I choose to watch another programme.
I really can't understand why there has been so much discussion about this matter. If people want to 'split hairs' go and see whatever else life has to offer. As for Rules, Polls and 'loose censorship,' what on earth do we need those for.
The Politics section was set up to draw political discussions away from non-political topics. It is a simple mode of ensuring sensible structure in the Forum. This Forum is a perfect example of Democracy in action. Ring-fencing allowable discussion is not democratic. If you do not feel comfortable with a contribution, you can draw the attention of a Moderator to it. Otherwise, let people enjoy the freedom that we have here. In a somewhat melodramatic tenor, "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." And some of it is said in the Politics section. :)
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
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Re: What to do with the Politics?

Post by Vicomte » Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:43 pm

efc wrote:
Vicomte wrote:To be honest, I did wonder how a politics thread ever came in to being on a Leonard Cohen Forum ?

Jarkko must have felt it necessary, so........
Exactly, Jarkko did feel it necessary.
"did" being the operative word of course , this is now, not then.

Times change and Jarkko obviously felt that now, for one reason or another, that it might be best to ask the members if they would prefer it to be "history".
I guess it all started for me sometime around Christmas 1967 and now, goodness me, it's.........2018 and over fifty years later.
No one ever listens to me. I might as well be a Leonard Cohen record.
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Re: What to do with the Politics?

Post by Byron » Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:52 pm

The on-going, and seemingly never-ending contributions, in these pages, about Politics, actually prove the need for it to remain. Without stating the obvious, too loudly, what we are seeing is politics in action. This thread has become self-serving and therefore everyone who has contributed to it, has proved the need for such discussions to take place.
Cogito ergo typeimus. I think, therefore I type. :idea:
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
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Re: What to do with the Politics?

Post by John the Shorts » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:15 am

efc wrote:John the Shorts

I'm responding to different points in several posts, and you've responded by repeating all 8 posts. I'm sure even you agree that I was entitled to 1 reply, so I take it you object to only 7.
I simply object to multiple responses in quick succession - not being interested in boosting my own post count (which incidentally you've done again, albeit not to the same degree)
To err is human
To forgive is against government policy

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Re: What to do with the Politics?

Post by seadove » Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:26 am

Jarkko,

It is without any doubt that the poli section is a sort of pain in the ass to some of us, I realize that it can easily be a headache especially to you as a mod.

However, I want to give you my approach to this argument.

As an Israeli in the first and formost, and a proud one if you ask me, and also as a jew, G-d knows which ever should come first, I'm not so sure, I find the poli section a very vital section to explain things that have deliberately been bended and twisted, thanks to quite a few hostile news medias such as the BBC, Aljazeera and also the CNN to quite an extent. It seems that every morning, at home, I make a cup of coffee for myself, and then I come to my internet room and start surveying the various media to find a huge shit load of disinformation. And just to give you a rough example I was chatting by msg to a work friend who is an englishman, and he says to me that we Israelis travel by camel and that we donot roam around the streets because there is muych fighting going on between Palestinians and Jews. Stuff like that.

So poli sections, for me, and ofcourse for other very concerned Israelis, is a very vital survival kit. It gives us a chance to retaliate and bring forward facts that are deliberately left unheeded or even hidden. It also gives us an important stepping stone to scold our own leaders for their mistakes, we have never pretended to anyone that we are never wrong makers. And yet it is the disinformation we are battling here and without an appropriate stage, who knows, I might miss my camel to get to work.

I think it was Leonard who used a sentence such as "It's a jew's hop on the table", Can't remember the whole song. For me the poli section makes it easy for people like me to hop on and explain ourselves.
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Re: What to do with the Politics?

Post by Byron » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:12 pm

Seadove, well put. :)
But you are not alone in receiving mis-information. All governments try to hide the Truth from their own citizens. It is only with much thanks to those souls who forced through Acts, such as The Freedom Of Information, that a lot of information is now emerging here.
As for your friend and the camel...........I believe that the camel is profoundly more intelligent than your friend. 8)
Have a look at the Jokes Section, "They Walk Amongst Us" and find the contribution about the stupid woman who was a contestant on "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire." She thinks that an elephant is bigger than the Moon. The same thread continues in a similar vein with examples of how utterly stupid some people are. One woman was asked "On which of his 3 voyages around the World, did Captain Cook die?" She said it was a difficult one because she was never very good at History.
BBC Radio Merseyside has a phone-in programme every day at lunch time. The 'ordinary man and woman in the street' have the opportunity to phone in and talk about topics that they are concerned with. These topics can range from soccer, cricket, golf, education, local politics, international politics, the economy, Iraq, Afghanistan, Global Warming, etc., etc., etc. From time to time I tune in to listen. The programme reminds me that 'They Walk Amongst Us......and they vote'
Some contributors are excellent. They would understand immediately the concern you have expressed about how news and views are twisted and bent. Such contributors are 'a real education' and I've learned a lot from them. Please continue to educate your friend.
Marg and I had a wonderful holiday in Israel some years ago. (We hardly ever do beach holidays) Jerusalem is a beautiful city that I can best describe as sweating history and culture. (It was early Summer when we were there ;-) )
Masada is an incredible place. Especially for me, who is terrified of heights !! We stood on the hilltop, and watched an Israeli Hercules Transport plane fly past below us, and it was still below sea level 8)
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Re: What to do with the Politics?

Post by Geoffrey » Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:03 pm

jarkko wrote:
>the threads get excessive visibility in the "View new posts" option which is used by most of our members.

no problem for me, because i have never yet managed to implement this option, try though i most certainly have. also, i have to write my name and password EVERY SINGLE TIME i visit this site, even though i tick the box in which is written 'log me on automatically each visit'. the only time it ever works for me is when i am laying in bed; a mattress is a platform where cripples walk, where blind and deaf can see and hear, where lots of weird things occur. but when i'm awake and not dreaming, i can forget about viewing new posts of logging on automatically. but it's no problem, i have accepted it. optimism for me is merely a rocket rusting on the launching pad. "I know I'll never get it right," as Leonard said in 'coming back to you'.

concerning the 'politics' column, the 'for or against' discussion. i may not possess the wisdom of solomon, but believe that no war is won until both sides are friends, and that is usually only accomplished after a fight to the death. in other words, jarkko my friend, it's time to exert your leadership qualities in a constructive way by deleting the entire section.
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