Statement from Cohen Estate: Unauthorized use of "Hallelujah" as finale to Convention Festivities

News about Leonard Cohen and his work, press, radio & TV programs etc.
danslenoir
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Re: Statement from Cohen Estate: Unauthorized use of "Hallelujah" as finale to Convention Festivities

Post by danslenoir » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:27 am

Cheshire gal wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:27 pm
How very mean spirited you socialists are. This is just the reaction I expected though.
If it weren't already pretty obvious based on some of his lyrics, the Cohen family made it very clear in the response they put out that they do not think Cohen would have wanted to be associated with the Republican party or Donald Trump.

So unless you think you have a better idea of how he would have felt about his music being used in this way than his family, or you don't think it matters what he would have wanted, how can you feel anything other than disgust at them using his music like this after being told not to?
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Geoffrey
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Re: Statement from Cohen Estate: Unauthorized use of "Hallelujah" as finale to Convention Festivities

Post by Geoffrey » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:06 pm

danslenoir wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:27 am
If it weren't already pretty obvious based on some of his lyrics, the Cohen family made it very clear in the response they put out that they do not think Cohen would have wanted to be associated with the Republican party or Donald Trump.

So unless you think you have a better idea of how he would have felt about his music being used in this way than his family, or you don't think it matters what he would have wanted, how can you feel anything other than disgust at them using his music like this after being told not to?
leonard, the wise and congenial man that he was, mostly avoided stating publicly his political preferences, and it is hard to think of an occasion when he refused permission for his work to be used by any political party. the only thing that is obvious "based on some of his lyrics" is that as a songwriter his words do not always represent his true thoughts . . . unless, of course, he really meant "when it all comes down to dust i will kill you if I must".

as for whom leonard would have wanted to be associated with, that is conjecture. i have heard that in his later years whenever he visited norway he associated with a most unlikable gentleman. perhaps as well as being kind he was also just a bad judge of character ;-)
danslenoir
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Re: Statement from Cohen Estate: Unauthorized use of "Hallelujah" as finale to Convention Festivities

Post by danslenoir » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:14 pm

Geoffrey wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:06 pm
danslenoir wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:27 am
If it weren't already pretty obvious based on some of his lyrics, the Cohen family made it very clear in the response they put out that they do not think Cohen would have wanted to be associated with the Republican party or Donald Trump.

So unless you think you have a better idea of how he would have felt about his music being used in this way than his family, or you don't think it matters what he would have wanted, how can you feel anything other than disgust at them using his music like this after being told not to?
leonard, the wise and congenial man that he was, mostly avoided stating publicly his political preferences, and it is hard to think of an occasion when he refused permission for his work to be used by any political party. the only thing that is obvious "based on some of his lyrics" is that as a songwriter his words do not always represent his true thoughts . . . unless, of course, he really meant "when it all comes down to dust i will kill you if I must".

as for whom leonard would have wanted to be associated with, that is conjecture. i have heard that in his later years whenever he visited norway he associated with a most unlikable gentleman. perhaps as well as being kind he was also just a bad judge of character ;-)
You ignored the point about the statement made by lawyers on behalf of his family. The reference to 'You Want It Darker' was quite deliberate, and the inference very clear.
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Geoffrey
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Re: Statement from Cohen Estate: Unauthorized use of "Hallelujah" as finale to Convention Festivities

Post by Geoffrey » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:01 pm

danslenoir wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:14 pm
You ignored the point about the statement made by lawyers on behalf of his family. The reference to 'You Want It Darker' was quite deliberate, and the inference very clear.
well, people can make statements, but they cannot be put into the mouth of a dead person - regardless of good intentions.
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LisaLCFan
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Re: Statement from Cohen Estate: Unauthorized use of "Hallelujah" as finale to Convention Festivities

Post by LisaLCFan » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:50 pm

Geoffrey wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:01 pm
danslenoir wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:14 pm
You ignored the point about the statement made by lawyers on behalf of his family...
well, people can make statements, but they cannot be put into the mouth of a dead person - regardless of good intentions.

Actually, the legal representatives of a dead person can, in essence, put statements into their mouth, by having been granted, by the dead person while still alive, the right to speak and act on their behalf after their death. What Leonard himself may or may not have thought about the Republicans, Trump, etc, is actually not relevant -- what is relevant is that he gave his Estate the legal right to act on his behalf after his death, and they are doing so.

Presumably, Leonard chose people who he thought would best represent and uphold his wishes and his best interests, and so if one questions the decisions and choices made by the Cohen Estate, then they are, in effect, questioning Leonard's judgment in choosing those people to act on his behalf. Of course, that is a person's prerogative, but the fact is, the Cohen Estate has legals rights over his work, whether or not anyone else likes it, and what the Estate decides to do with it is completely within their rights, as granted to them by Leonard Cohen himself.
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Geoffrey
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Re: Statement from Cohen Estate: Unauthorized use of "Hallelujah" as finale to Convention Festivities

Post by Geoffrey » Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:38 pm

LisaLCFan wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:50 pm
Presumably, Leonard chose people who he thought would best represent and uphold his wishes and his best interests, and so if one questions the decisions and choices made by the Cohen Estate, then they are, in effect, questioning Leonard's judgment in choosing those people to act on his behalf.
what you say is correct, and the cohen estate's decisions should be treated with respect. however, it should also be remembered that leonard's judgement was not always infallible. he trusted a former manager, for instance - and that did not go well. the fact remains that nobody knows what leonard would have done regarding this current situation. it is all theoretical :-(
yopietro
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Re: Statement from Cohen Estate: Unauthorized use of "Hallelujah" as finale to Convention Festivities

Post by yopietro » Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:42 pm

Political parties aside (Cohen may have been "neither left nor right"), do people here really have any doubt how Leonard would have felt about a figure like Trump? The current president is pretty much character-wise the antithesis of who Cohen was as a man. In his life and his work, Cohen was a profoundly spiritual man, exploring the depths of love, seeking out truth, and conducting himself with a gentlemanly grace. His work and his presence had a powerful heart-opening effect for so many of us. To Trump, "love's the only engine of survival" is a sucker's credo. He lives and leads by the opposite code. I have very little doubt (as do his family and estate who know him a lot better) that Cohen would have lamented the presence of the "cruel and dark regime" of the current administration and its amoral figurehead.
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Geoffrey
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Re: Statement from Cohen Estate: Unauthorized use of "Hallelujah" as finale to Convention Festivities

Post by Geoffrey » Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:52 pm

yopietro wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:42 pm
To Trump, "love's the only engine of survival" is a sucker's credo. He lives and leads by the opposite code. I have very little doubt (as do his family and estate who know him a lot better) that Cohen would have lamented the presence of the "cruel and dark regime" of the current administration and its amoral figurehead.
thank you, but remember we are not here to discuss biden versus trump, such messages belong in the 'politics' section.
yopietro
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Re: Statement from Cohen Estate: Unauthorized use of "Hallelujah" as finale to Convention Festivities

Post by yopietro » Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:59 pm

Geoffrey wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:52 pm
thank you, but remember we are not here to discuss biden versus trump, such messages belong in the 'politics' section.
I didn't say anything about Biden or the election. It was purely about Trump and the family's decision to make a statement about him using Hallelujah, which is the topic of this thread, which you seem to be okay posting about here.
Last edited by yopietro on Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LisaLCFan
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Re: Statement from Cohen Estate: Unauthorized use of "Hallelujah" as finale to Convention Festivities

Post by LisaLCFan » Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:59 pm

Geoffrey wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:38 pm
...what you say is correct, and the cohen estate's decisions should be treated with respect. however, it should also be remembered that leonard's judgement was not always infallible. he trusted a former manager, for instance - and that did not go well. the fact remains that nobody knows what leonard would have done regarding this current situation. it is all theoretical :-(

All true. I generally avoid making assumptions about what others may think, feel, etc. -- I only know my own thoughts and feelings, and can merely guess at those of others. I tend to get very irritated when other people ascribe thoughts and feelings to me, because more often than not, they are wrong. Thus, I try only to state obvious facts about others, rather than my own hypotheses, and I believe (or certainly hope) that I have not violated that in any of my above posts.
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Geoffrey
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Re: Statement from Cohen Estate: Unauthorized use of "Hallelujah" as finale to Convention Festivities

Post by Geoffrey » Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:15 am

LisaLCFan wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:59 pm
>I try only to state obvious facts about others, rather than my own hypotheses, and I believe (or certainly hope) that I have not violated that in any of my above posts.
everything you write is always well thought out, and always a pleasure to read :-)
danslenoir
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Re: Statement from Cohen Estate: Unauthorized use of "Hallelujah" as finale to Convention Festivities

Post by danslenoir » Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:04 am

yopietro wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:42 pm
Political parties aside (Cohen may have been "neither left nor right"), do people here really have any doubt how Leonard would have felt about a figure like Trump? The current president is pretty much character-wise the antithesis of who Cohen was as a man. In his life and his work, Cohen was a profoundly spiritual man, exploring the depths of love, seeking out truth, and conducting himself with a gentlemanly grace. His work and his presence had a powerful heart-opening effect for so many of us. To Trump, "love's the only engine of survival" is a sucker's credo. He lives and leads by the opposite code. I have very little doubt (as do his family and estate who know him a lot better) that Cohen would have lamented the presence of the "cruel and dark regime" of the current administration and its amoral figurehead.
Great post.

Whilst I acknowledge one can never be 100% sure what another person might think about any given subject matter, I'm genuinely baffled at suggestions from others that the odds Leonard might have looked favourably on Trump are anything other than infintisimally small.

Trump is the antithesis of Leonard in every respect.
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Geoffrey
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Re: Statement from Cohen Estate: Unauthorized use of "Hallelujah" as finale to Convention Festivities

Post by Geoffrey » Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:18 am

danslenoir wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:04 am
>I'm genuinely baffled at suggestions from others that the odds Leonard might have looked favourably on Trump are anything other than infintisimally small.
infinitesimally
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