What I don't like about these shows
What I don't like about these shows
Some comments about the shows on the Copenhagen thread here are worthy of further discussion, IMHO:
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=11564
I should say that I haven't seen a show yet (I'm off to Bruges on Thursday) but I've heard a number of the recordings. What is bothering me is: (a) the number of times he introduces the band; and (b) the fact that, as Tom says in the thread above, "every second seems calculated and rehearsed."
There is really no need for Cohen to say the name of a band member after practically every solo performed by that person. Yes, I know he is sensitive and respectful of them, and he wishes to give them their due. I understand why he does it. But I still think it's wrong. Let's face it, we are there to hear Leonard. The musicians are great, but we don't need to hear their names more than once, at the end of the show. In 1988 and 1993, he was doing the same thing. But in earlier years (1985 springs to mind) he certainly was not - there was an "introduce the band" spot near the end and that was that.
Which brings me to my second complaint - that everything is so planned and meticulous. No risks are taken, there are no off-the-cuff comments to the audience, the set list hardly varies at all from night to night. Listen to recordings of two separate concerts and you'd be hard pressed to tell them apart. To me, this is not what live music should be about. Compare an artist like Springsteen, who always throws in one or two different songs most nights, to make the set more interesting both for the band and the audience, and who frequently talks to the audience, reaching out to them. With Cohen, all we get is the band member announcements and those daft 'introductions' to the songs which consist of a few lines from the lyric being intoned sonorously. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm even missing that long spoken introduction to Chelsea Hotel #2 we used to get ("little lady, I'm Kris Kristofferson"). It got tedious once it became apparent that it was as meticulously rehearsed as any of the songs, but at least it was something.
Don't get me wrong, I love the music and I will be cheering as much as anyone in Bruges on Thursday night. I just wish we could have a bit more spontaneity, improvisation, off-the-cuffness, call it what you will.
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=11564
I should say that I haven't seen a show yet (I'm off to Bruges on Thursday) but I've heard a number of the recordings. What is bothering me is: (a) the number of times he introduces the band; and (b) the fact that, as Tom says in the thread above, "every second seems calculated and rehearsed."
There is really no need for Cohen to say the name of a band member after practically every solo performed by that person. Yes, I know he is sensitive and respectful of them, and he wishes to give them their due. I understand why he does it. But I still think it's wrong. Let's face it, we are there to hear Leonard. The musicians are great, but we don't need to hear their names more than once, at the end of the show. In 1988 and 1993, he was doing the same thing. But in earlier years (1985 springs to mind) he certainly was not - there was an "introduce the band" spot near the end and that was that.
Which brings me to my second complaint - that everything is so planned and meticulous. No risks are taken, there are no off-the-cuff comments to the audience, the set list hardly varies at all from night to night. Listen to recordings of two separate concerts and you'd be hard pressed to tell them apart. To me, this is not what live music should be about. Compare an artist like Springsteen, who always throws in one or two different songs most nights, to make the set more interesting both for the band and the audience, and who frequently talks to the audience, reaching out to them. With Cohen, all we get is the band member announcements and those daft 'introductions' to the songs which consist of a few lines from the lyric being intoned sonorously. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm even missing that long spoken introduction to Chelsea Hotel #2 we used to get ("little lady, I'm Kris Kristofferson"). It got tedious once it became apparent that it was as meticulously rehearsed as any of the songs, but at least it was something.
Don't get me wrong, I love the music and I will be cheering as much as anyone in Bruges on Thursday night. I just wish we could have a bit more spontaneity, improvisation, off-the-cuffness, call it what you will.
Re: What I don't like about these shows
If you are suggesting, richardrj, that the show could be improved for the already familiar by a bit more spontaniety and variation of songs then that must be the case.
Having said that, I went to all four Manchester shows one night after the other and can't say I was anything less than ecstatic throughout despite the "groundhog dayness" of the repeated experience. Every night felt fresh, this was a "once in a lifetime" opportunity and the setlist is that strong it could hardly be improved by addition and subtraction.
The shows are clearly rehearsed right down to the inter-song spoken bits etc. But for a lot of fans (probably the vast majority of attendees) this event will be a one off experience, so will be unique on each occasion for most.
Taking into account Leonard Cohen's age, time spent out of the spotlight and legendary stage fright I can understand why the shows should be tightly organised affairs. It takes a certain assuredness to be spontaneous and off the cuff, and there is always the danger in doing so of a disastrous performance or unwitty witticism.
The old adage that "if it works don't fix it" seems to apply.
And there is also the "equal treatment" point that if every audience gets roughly the same show delivered to it then no-one feels they have missed out.
Having said that, I went to all four Manchester shows one night after the other and can't say I was anything less than ecstatic throughout despite the "groundhog dayness" of the repeated experience. Every night felt fresh, this was a "once in a lifetime" opportunity and the setlist is that strong it could hardly be improved by addition and subtraction.
The shows are clearly rehearsed right down to the inter-song spoken bits etc. But for a lot of fans (probably the vast majority of attendees) this event will be a one off experience, so will be unique on each occasion for most.
Taking into account Leonard Cohen's age, time spent out of the spotlight and legendary stage fright I can understand why the shows should be tightly organised affairs. It takes a certain assuredness to be spontaneous and off the cuff, and there is always the danger in doing so of a disastrous performance or unwitty witticism.
The old adage that "if it works don't fix it" seems to apply.
And there is also the "equal treatment" point that if every audience gets roughly the same show delivered to it then no-one feels they have missed out.
- blonde madonna
- Posts: 981
- Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:27 am
Re: What I don't like about these shows
I can't help feeling that there is just no pleasing some people.
Here we have a well rehearsed professional group of musicians delivering a thoughtfully planned performance that is being consistently presented to each and every audience they appear before. They are getting great reviews everywhere and from everyone.
Leonard Cohen is not some amateur putting on a show for the local pub crowd. This is a world tour. He has his act together, he is heart breakingly generous, naturally gracious and I can’t believe how lucky we are that events have conspired to bring us this gift.
Maybe I'm just easily pleased. That's fine with me.
BM
Here we have a well rehearsed professional group of musicians delivering a thoughtfully planned performance that is being consistently presented to each and every audience they appear before. They are getting great reviews everywhere and from everyone.
Leonard Cohen is not some amateur putting on a show for the local pub crowd. This is a world tour. He has his act together, he is heart breakingly generous, naturally gracious and I can’t believe how lucky we are that events have conspired to bring us this gift.
Maybe I'm just easily pleased. That's fine with me.
BM
the art of longing’s over and it’s never coming back
1980 -- Comedy Theatre, Melbourne
1985 -- State Theatre, Melbourne
2008 -- Hamilton, Toronto, Cardiff
2009 -- Rochford Winery, Yarra Valley
2010 -- Melbourne
2013 -- Melbourne, The Hill Winery, Geelong, Auckland
1980 -- Comedy Theatre, Melbourne
1985 -- State Theatre, Melbourne
2008 -- Hamilton, Toronto, Cardiff
2009 -- Rochford Winery, Yarra Valley
2010 -- Melbourne
2013 -- Melbourne, The Hill Winery, Geelong, Auckland
Re: What I don't like about these shows
The two concerts I saw were the same but different. I think it is a very strong set. The problem is with the internet and other medias you can access previous concerts so easily and compare.
I am sure pre-internet Leonard also had a preordained show throughout the tour but as we could only see the concert we attended we would have had no way of knowing.
I agree with UrPal if it ain't broke don't fix it.
I am sure pre-internet Leonard also had a preordained show throughout the tour but as we could only see the concert we attended we would have had no way of knowing.
I agree with UrPal if it ain't broke don't fix it.
Dublin 14th June, Manchester 20th June, O2 17th July, Matlock Bandstand Aug 28, O2 14th November, Royal Albert Hall 17th and 18th November 2008, MBW 11th July 2009, Liverpool Echo 14th July 2009
Re: What I don't like about these shows
UrPal wrote: The old adage that "if it works don't fix it" seems to apply.
Thanks for correcting my adage, Paula. Just goes to show how easy ill-rehearsed lines can be fluffedPaula wrote:I agree with UrPal if it ain't broke don't fix it.
At the Manchester gig on 18 July Leonard Cohen introduced "Neil Hammond on the Larsen XK3"!
OK, I could be making the last bit up.....
Larsen's solo climactic build on Hallelujah that night was enough to temporarily throw anyone off the scent a little. I didn't notice the re-naming of the keyboard player at the time, but Neil Hammond sounds like the sort of cool dude you might like to meet!
Re: What I don't like about these shows
I would think that most singers/bands do more or less the same show every night on a tour. nothing wrong with this and it would be a bit much asked for to do something totally different every night.
Re: What I don't like about these shows
Look at the four great rockstars on tour this year - Dylan (OK, he's always on tour), Springsteen, Young and Cohen. I would say that the first three are varying their setlists by at least one song, and probably more, every night.osmachar wrote:I would think that most singers/bands do more or less the same show every night on a tour. nothing wrong with this and it would be a bit much asked for to do something totally different every night.
Re: What I don't like about these shows
Hi UrPal - didn't realise I had corrected you until you mentioned it.
Richardrj - he has been adding and removing songs. He did a couple at Manchester he didn't do in Ireland and dropped a couple.
Richardrj - he has been adding and removing songs. He did a couple at Manchester he didn't do in Ireland and dropped a couple.
Dublin 14th June, Manchester 20th June, O2 17th July, Matlock Bandstand Aug 28, O2 14th November, Royal Albert Hall 17th and 18th November 2008, MBW 11th July 2009, Liverpool Echo 14th July 2009
Re: What I don't like about these shows
How many of those other artists perform faultlessly three solid hours of wall to wall classics each night?
Answer: none.
Answer: none.
Re: What I don't like about these shows
That is entirely a matter of opinion, of course. I'm with you on Dylan, but the Springsteen and Young shows I saw this year were both three hours long and were indeed full of what you might call "classics" (not sure how you'd define that term though).UrPal wrote:How many of those other artists perform faultlessly three solid hours of wall to wall classics each night?
Answer: none.
Re: What I don't like about these shows
I have seen all the artists above and I have to say the Leonard Cohen concert is way above what any of them are doing now especially Dylan and I love Dylan's music including the stuff he is doing now. But Mr Cohen isnt playing a rockstar set! And going back over the years having seen hundreds of concerts from the likes of The Jam, Patti Smith Ravi Shanka through the Smiths to Bonnie Prince Billie and Manu Chauo I have to say nothing has moved me more than these concerts.richardrj wrote:Look at the four great rockstars on tour this year - Dylan (OK, he's always on tour), Springsteen, Young and Cohen. I would say that the first three are varying their setlists by at least one song, and probably more, every night.osmachar wrote:I would think that most singers/bands do more or less the same show every night on a tour. nothing wrong with this and it would be a bit much asked for to do something totally different every night.
As for varying the set list most artists dont vary it by much more that a song or two normally it doesnt matter as most people only one gig on the tour - I have to say this is the first time I have ever been to more than one gig on a tour since 1978 when I saw the Clash four times.
I think what may be taking the 'surprise element' out of this tour for those yet to see him is the detail that is appearing on this forum and youtube but I guess thats part of the scene these days. Its like you've been told the beginning, middle and end of a story and you even know he's gonna sing "I didn't come to <insert town here> to fool ya" But dont worry you are going to be entranced and come away feeling elated know matter how many time he namechecks the band!
Having said all of the above Mr. Cohen is varying the setlist - when I saw him on the Friday in Manchester he played at least 3 extra songs from what he played on the Sunday at Dublin
As for varying the set in some other way well some new songs would be nice ... may be in the Autumn.
One last point we are experiencing a legend who is 73 years old doing a tour schedule which many a younger man would find grueling - he has earned the right to perform for us in whatever way he chooses and if that is word for word , note for note the same then so be it. He was/is(?) an outsider in the music business in a way none of the 3 'rockstars' above are - just because they rehearse their spontenaity better doesn't make their shows any better than Mr. Cohen's.
Re: What I don't like about these shows
How would you define a decent meal?richardrj wrote:That is entirely a matter of opinion, of course. I'm with you on Dylan, but the Springsteen and Young shows I saw this year were both three hours long and were indeed full of what you might call "classics" (not sure how you'd define that term though).UrPal wrote:How many of those other artists perform faultlessly three solid hours of wall to wall classics each night?
Answer: none.
If you're hungry there is no denying that you will eat anything. As recent experience has shown, if you have too much, it's in human nature to habitually continue eating anything.
But there is still a dividing line between an exquisitely cooked and presented meal and a Mcdonalds. The fact is that most of the population are happy to get by on a Mackie D - preferring convenience over effort - and that's fine by me.
I'll still contend there is a qualitative difference.
Not that I'm suggesting Dylan, Springsteen & Co are a MacDonalds. Good hearty meals all. Just not as exquisite.
Re: What I don't like about these shows
Can I just apologise for the number of typos, bad spelling and grammar in my post above ... hopefully the sentiment wasn't lost!
Re: What I don't like about these shows
Richardrj you’re perfectly entitled to critique of course, and as you say you’ll be cheering as much as anyone in Bruges, but in the wider scheme of things I don’t see your issues with the show, even if one takes them as read, as being particularly significant.
I think I’m right in saying that Leonard is on stage for 2 hours 45 minutes or so each night (allowing for the interval). That was certainly the case when I saw him at Manchester 2. I saw Springsteen at the Emirates some two weeks earlier, and he was on stage for exactly the same length of time, and at that point it was his longest show of the tour. Springsteen was larking about for some of the time, wandering around collecting written requests from the crowd and so on (and that’s why he played Cadillac Ranch which I for one could have done without). Leonard’s set was wall to wall music. Springsteen’s sound was rubbish (and it wasn’t just because of his trademark mumbling). Leonard’s sound was top notch.
It’s interesting to note the very favourable reaction to Leonard’s Glastonbury set, a large open air event, where many people will have known little of his work.
Perhaps Leonard could cut down on the band introductions, or come up with fresh bon mots each night but for my part I’m happy with things as they are.
I think I’m right in saying that Leonard is on stage for 2 hours 45 minutes or so each night (allowing for the interval). That was certainly the case when I saw him at Manchester 2. I saw Springsteen at the Emirates some two weeks earlier, and he was on stage for exactly the same length of time, and at that point it was his longest show of the tour. Springsteen was larking about for some of the time, wandering around collecting written requests from the crowd and so on (and that’s why he played Cadillac Ranch which I for one could have done without). Leonard’s set was wall to wall music. Springsteen’s sound was rubbish (and it wasn’t just because of his trademark mumbling). Leonard’s sound was top notch.
It’s interesting to note the very favourable reaction to Leonard’s Glastonbury set, a large open air event, where many people will have known little of his work.
Perhaps Leonard could cut down on the band introductions, or come up with fresh bon mots each night but for my part I’m happy with things as they are.
Re: What I don't like about these shows
Since the Manchester show, I've been listening to some of my other 'live cds' from past years and also been thinking about his acknowlegements/introductions of each band member.
Firstly..he has always done it. Probably not to the extent he is doing it now but it has always been part of his show.
if I begin to try to understand why, then I appreciate it more.
I noticed, at times, he bowed to each in turn.
He is showing respect and is ensuring that we recognise how good they really are...without them you haven't got a show.
He is also shifting the adoration coming his way ..adoration which has probably taken him by surprise .. so that the 'spotlight' isnt continually on him.
In that sense, I'm happy.
I do miss his intro's though..he used to recite a verse of a song before starting to sing it... but I'm not grumbling, he's giving us a quality show that is worth every emotion.
Pete
Firstly..he has always done it. Probably not to the extent he is doing it now but it has always been part of his show.
if I begin to try to understand why, then I appreciate it more.
I noticed, at times, he bowed to each in turn.
He is showing respect and is ensuring that we recognise how good they really are...without them you haven't got a show.
He is also shifting the adoration coming his way ..adoration which has probably taken him by surprise .. so that the 'spotlight' isnt continually on him.
In that sense, I'm happy.
I do miss his intro's though..he used to recite a verse of a song before starting to sing it... but I'm not grumbling, he's giving us a quality show that is worth every emotion.
Pete
1974: Brighton Dome 1976: Birmingham Town Hall 1993: London RAH 2008: Manchester Opera House, London O2, Matlock Bandstand, Birmingham NEC 2009: Liverpool Echo Arena 2013 Birmingham