Muffins or War

This is for your own works!!!

Muffins (lightly toasted with perhaps a little strawberry jelly) or a *just* War with not very many casulaties

I prefer a Just war
15
21%
I prefer just muffins
57
79%
 
Total votes: 72
Christine
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Re: Muffins or War

Post by Christine » Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:47 pm

The horrors of it, Laurie. With as many as half of all Iraqi doctors having left since the US invasion and who knows how many nurses and techs, there aren't enough people like your niece. Thanks for posting her email.

Byron, I read some links in your Sassoon link and hope you don't mind my posting his Dec against the War here as much of it seems relevant today. Thanks.
Sassoon's Declaration against the War
"I am making this statement as an act of wilful defiance of military authority, because I believe that the War is being deliberately prolonged by those who have the power to end it. I am a soldier, convinced that I am acting on behalf of soldiers. I believe that this War, on which I entered as a war of defence and liberation, has now become a war of aggression and conquest. I believe that the purpose for which I and my fellow soldiers entered upon this war should have been so clearly stated as to have made it impossible to change them, and that, had this been done, the objects which actuated us would now be attainable by negotiation. I have seen and endured the sufferings of the troops, and I can no longer be a party to prolong these sufferings for ends which I believe to be evil and unjust. I am not protesting against the conduct of the war, but against the political errors and insincerities for which the fighting men are being sacrificed. On behalf of those who are suffering now I make this protest against the deception which is being practised on them; also I believe that I may help to destroy the callous complacency with which the majority of those at home regard the contrivance of agonies which they do not, and which they have not sufficient imagination to realize".
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Re: Muffins or War

Post by Alan Alda » Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:51 pm

Nothing new under the sun. The declaration could have been writ yesterday.

It reminded me of a commercial I have seen a couple of times sponsored by some delusional far-right wing mob. It is sooo sad. I soldier, a real soldier from this war missing limbs in on the screen speaking about how he supports the war BECAUSE THESE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT ATTACKED US DURING 9-11. He's been there and will never be the same and someones is still pumping him full of kool-aid about Iraq and 9/11 and taking advantage of his circumstance by parading him. Delusional and sick.

Laurie
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Red Poppy
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Re: Muffins or War

Post by Red Poppy » Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:57 am

As Byron says, Sassoon was a man who went expecting one thing and found the reality was something entirely and sickeningly different.
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lizzytysh
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Re: Muffins or War

Post by lizzytysh » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:22 am

As Byron says, Sassoon was a man who went expecting one thing and found the reality was something entirely and sickeningly different.
As have so many. How they've dealt with it has varied markedly.


~ Lizzy
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Byron
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Re: Muffins or War

Post by Byron » Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:07 pm

Prince Harry. Respect. 8)


I still disagree with the war though. :cry:
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
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lizzytysh
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Re: Muffins or War

Post by lizzytysh » Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:45 pm

Prince Harry. Respect. 8)
That's how I feel about it, too; as he's tried to not be so self-important as to not be as sacrificial as the rest of the young men being sent. I'll always hold to the belief that if those perpetrating the wars from high places were to send their own along with the general public, there would be a lot fewer wars.

All that said, I was glad to hear that he's coming home; the same as I'm glad to hear that anyone is coming home. Why should he die in a useless war, any more than anyone else.


~ Lizzy
"Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken."
~ Oscar Wilde
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liverpoolken
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Re: Muffins or War

Post by liverpoolken » Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:25 pm

Shame on you John and Lizzy for helping to perpertrate this sickening myth of the 'brave young prince'

Gorgeous George Galloway in today's Guardian i think has it nailed.
For those who are not familiar with Prince Harry he is the ginger one who's claim to fame so far has been for his drug taking and dressing up as a Nazi officer.

Cry 'God for Harry, England and St George'George Galloway
February 29, 2008 2:00 PM

As the peerless John Pilger put it, the invasion of Iraq would have been impossible without the supine connivance of the British media. The BBC was as much a part of operations as the Black Watch.

Five years on and a further instance of the kind of collusion that embeds journalism in the sewer of state spin. Peter Wilby says the media were "suckered", but that's a charitable view.

The case for the media keeping mum about Prince Harry's deployment to Afghanistan is straightforward enough - protecting not only his security but that of those around him. If that were all there was to it, then there would be little to consider, except the extraordinary double standard of the British media, which means that some people's safety and privacy is deemed worthy of protection and others' not.

But a moment's thought should puncture the gushing, sentimental story of the media and the MoD uniting in the national interest - reporters and royalty, prince and paparazzi standing together against a common foe.

At the very least, news of this collusion has made life very difficult for reporters, especially conscientious ones, in the BBC and other news organisations. Many people across the world already believed the BBC to be complicit in the British government's crimes of war. Now the corporation has acknowledged that it colluded with the state to suppress and manipulate the news.

How will that improve the standing of British correspondents abroad? Or their safety.

But collusion certainly didn't end there. The media is ever a hungry beast, and it was inconceivable that it would fast for three months without the promise of bacchanalian orgy at the end of it.

And so the flipside of 10 weeks of radio silence is wall-to-wall Harry, as the pin-up of the armed forces, one of the lads, full of derring-do, a British hero on Afghanistan's plains straight out of Tennyson or Kipling.

For a military adventure which, now, even the US's senior intelligence officer concedes is staring into the abyss, this could not have come at a better time.

Over the last few months, I've asked at public meetings, on my radio show and on walkabouts, why people think we are in Afghanistan, what would define the "victory" which would allow us to withdraw with laurels. Our ambassador in Kabul - a double-barrel who might also have walked out of 19th-century page - says we are going to be there for 30 or 40 years.

Other countries, wisely, are none too phlegmatic about that prospect. Condoleezza Rice's last visit to Europe was part of the US's effort to put pressure on other Nato counties to commit more troops to the Afghan quagmire.

Then comes the scoop of the young prince forsaking Boujis, despatched to that place beyond the Khyber pass by his sovereign grandmother, and enduring hardship with cheerful Tommy. There were naturally a few touches to bring it into this century - instead of fixing bayonets, we're informed he helped bring down air strikes with a handheld computer, which could easily pass for a video game; no Latin motto on his cap, instead a psychotic, dehumanised epigram that could have come from Travis in Taxi Driver: "We do bad things to bad people."

All sections of the establishment have gained from this superbly well-executed piece of theatre (incidentally, I'm not doubting Harry's personal bravery, it's just that that is not the issue): the army has a star; the BBC and Fleet Street appear to have a heart; and the royal family have a newfound source of capital at just the time that the circus that is the Diana inquest heaps more and more ordure in their direction. Out with the images of partying in a Nazi uniform, in with the young warrior who lost his mother when young but who has now grown up.

So the greatest collusion of all by the media is in perpetuating the myths of this war and in helping to craft the perfect recruitment poster.

It's better than Kitchener's "Your country needs you." Skilfully and chillingly, it speaks to this century and through the most modern media.

It is going to play an enduring role in prolonging this futile adventure, and perhaps starting others, in a country which British armies have three times before staggered out of in defeat, leaving so many of their number behind. No one, not even Alexander the Great has successfully occupied Afghanistan; and Harry, whatever you think about him, is certainly no Alexander the Great.
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lizzytysh
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Re: Muffins or War

Post by lizzytysh » Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:09 pm

"Shame on you" ~ where have I been hearing that a lot, lately?

What I know is that about Prince Harry is relatively limited; however, I do know that he was born into a 'position' of relative 'entitlement' with zero expectation of dirtying his hands with this messy little thing called war. I absolutely feel that he's "brave" to volunteer/insist on going onto the battle lines, obviously risking his life in the process. If his own image/self-esteems concerns are that strong, to go to that extent to try to correct them, then it still beats standing in the safe, glass house, ordering others to go. He's made personal risk alongside his countrymen a part of his program and the fact is that he could already be dead now, and this discussion taking place posthumously. I'm not going to hold his going against him, any more than I hold it against other soldiers who go. If the higher-ups would do what really needs to be done, war wouldn't even be an issue. What the media and others have done prior to and since his going and then being sent home is another matter altogether. I seriously doubt that he would go, "Yeah! No problem! I have no problem with risking my life to help all you media [etc.] guys out ~ you've certainly been good enough to me and mine, especially my mother, so far!" The manipulation by media, government, and others isn't what I'm reacting to at all. It's begins and ends with Prince Harry putting his own life on the line... when it couldn't possibly be any clearer that he certainly didn't have to, and I stick with my admiration of him for doing it.



~ Lizzy
"Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken."
~ Oscar Wilde
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liverpoolken
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Re: Muffins or War

Post by liverpoolken » Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:50 pm

Lizzy

He choice to join the army, nobody forced him.

Therefore he volunteered to kill.

Respect is hardly the word I would use for such a mindset.

I hope your thoughts are also with the untold thousands of innocent women and children who have been slaughtered in Afghanistan and Iraq who unlike Prince Harry never had any choice in the matter.

I recommend the Tommy Lee Jones film In The Valley Of Elah for a beautiful and heartbreaking evocation of the true personal cost of our ongoing wars.
Anyways the last time I checked I see that your man if elected has promised to pull out all American troops from Iraq whether they want it or not. So that's sorted, not.

Ta Ken
Solitudine non é essere soli, é amare gli altri inutilmente - Mario Stefani
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lizzytysh
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Re: Muffins or War

Post by lizzytysh » Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:09 pm

Hi Ken ~

As far as where my thoughts are or aren't, how I feel about this war has been abundantly clear since before it began and hasn't changed since. My long-standing vehement opposition to it hasn't wavered since day one [since we're invoking Hillary and Barack here ~ that would put me on the side of Barack's position and in opposition to Hillary's... both from day one]. Perhaps, a family man got to come home because Prince Harry with no wife or children chose to enlist. Yes, he definitely had a choice in the matter. A choice that virtually every other silver-spoon holder chooses not to make... and not because they're against the war[s], but because they're more concerned about their own behind. My understanding is that troops are more 'needed' in Afghanistan, since we never should have gone to Iraq to begin with, but continued with the Osama bin Laden issue in Afghanistan. I'm quite certain that Prince Harry isn't harbouring a desire to kill, kill, kill. I would need to know more about him before I judged the reasons for his enlisting. I try to reserve judgment with the soldiers, as it's impossible to know each of their individual stories and their reasons for enlistment, and let it rest with the perpetrators, whose motives are far clearer.

My man. Which man? Do you mean Barack Obama, the one who comes after my former husband and Leonard Cohen? The beautiful thing about all three of them is that they're their own man. Yes, Barack Obama does want to get us out of an unjust war in Iraq. To cut our obvious losses, before all is lost. Barack Obama also wants to work on changing the mindset that continues to get us into wars. Addressing not the symptom, but the source of the problem.

Will you please pass the muffins?

Thanks.


~ Lizzy
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~ Oscar Wilde
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Byron
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Re: Muffins or War

Post by Byron » Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:36 pm

I respect Harry's bravery.

I continue to disagree with going to war.

Looking back over many other encounters in this thread, I have to say that this is a first. I am in someone's bad books because I choose to show respect to a particular man who is willing to put his life at risk.

Many, many times, in this thread I said that, young men and women were being fooled into going to war. Easily led by smooth tongued orators who have their own particular axes to grind. And who do you refer to? Gorgeous George. The smoothest tongued customer in the London arenas.

I like you Ken. I do not like royalty. I do not like war. I do not like the horrific waste of lives that I forecast in here, many times, prior to each of the Iraq wars. But I do admire bravery, in whatever shape and form it appears.

Whether I like Harry and his family is not at issue here. It is a young man's 'bravery,' no matter how much he has been brainwashed by the articulate, power-seeking, lever-pulling, political and military elite.

I agree that the prince has made some serious blunders in his short life. At his age, I did too.

In this country there are 5 million CCTV cameras. One for every 12 people. Did you know that within 200 yards of the house were Orwell wrote '1984,' there are 33 CCTV cameras?

Sorry if I've gone on a bit, but when someone starts talking about how awful the press have been over Harry, perhaps even conniving? I have to ask why the same press aren't hammering on about our loss of freedoms. As for Galloway..........I used to like him.............
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
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Diane
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Re: Muffins or War

Post by Diane » Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:33 pm

Byron, how did you get that "ant" in the bottom of your posts??

Or is something amiss with this computer?

Can we all have ants in our posts?
Last edited by Diane on Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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damellon
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Re: Muffins or War

Post by damellon » Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:40 pm

Byron - that's cruelty. :shock: Welease the ant!
You only have to let the soft animal of your body
love what it loves.

from Wild Geese
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jimbo
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Re: Muffins or War

Post by jimbo » Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:47 pm

its ok its a robot figure of eight scating paper bug..................
love is not forgotten......
Anne
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Re: Muffins or War

Post by Anne » Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:10 pm

I believe that Prince Harry was in as much personal risk as he would be when he attends Ascot, and he should be accorded exactly the same level of respect as you would give him there.

He was on a PR mission in Afghanistan. I hope shitting in the outdoors was the only verisimilitude they gave him, and that his video game weapons were not real. I don’t like to think of him ending people’s lives.

I also hope dressing up in UK soldier outfits was as fulfilling for him as dressing up in Nazi ones.

Respect is not the word that I think of when I think of him or the whole endeavour.
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