Muffins or War

This is for your own works!!!

Muffins (lightly toasted with perhaps a little strawberry jelly) or a *just* War with not very many casulaties

I prefer a Just war
15
21%
I prefer just muffins
57
79%
 
Total votes: 72
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Insanitor
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Post by Insanitor » Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:08 am

I am neither a boy nor am I an expert on Iraq (certainly I have not professed such an expertise). I was asking a question in response to a throwaway line intended as the winning argument.

If I don't know what you mean about the "Kofi Annan" scandal (and I do know who he is) and your goal is to enlighten, you're not achieving it. Now that you have thrown in the lines "oil for food" I know what you refer to, but as Byron says what has that got to do with the continued sending of soldiers to their farcical deaths?

Thank Christ for beer
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Byron
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Post by Byron » Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:26 pm

Butler: No WMD and no 45 minute threat.
There were no plausible reasons that can be substantiated.

It will be difficult for TB to be believed again.

The original reasons given for going to war were false.

Blair accepts Butler's Report.

I am NOT bashing the US here. OK?

The Truth is slowly emerging.
I repeat what I said earlier; the writing is on the wall. Only now, it is in letters 6 feet high.

We went to war on a false premiss and followed GWB's Time Table.

We were not under a threat from Saddam and he did not have any connections with AQ.

Butler has said so and Blair has publicly accepted this.

20,000 people are dead as a result of the attack on Iraq.

I agree that Saddam is evil, loathesome and a mass murderer.
But the whole point of WHY we went to war was built on serious flaws and were open to doubt.. Butler says so and Blair accepts it.

I am glad Saddam is in chains. His own people will deal with him.
But the people and Parliament in my country were deceived. Butler says so and Blair accepts what Butler said.

Language in the Dossier implied that the threat was fuller and firmer than it was, and Blair accepts that finding.

The Dossier had no note of caution and the evidence was 'thin.'

No-one lied or made up evidence. But the publicly declared implications should not have been relied upon.

We have still not been told what was the key reality to the decision that led us into this war.

Blix said that there were no WMDs and he was ignored by some and villified by others. He was correct.

WMD were the reason for going to war. Butler says they do not exist. Blair accepts this.

We all went to war on a false premiss.

Young men and women are still paying the price for this deception with their lives.
That is the part I find disgusting about all of this.
I can only wonder what their families think today.

If the facts in Butler's Report had been available 15 months ago when the House had to vote on going to war, the vote would not have been for war. That is how serious this whole situation is.

Intelligence reports on Iraq were flawed. There was no link between Saddam and AQ. We were all told that there was. There wasn't.

:!:
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Post by Pete » Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:45 pm

and still TB justifies reasons for going to war.......he says his conscience is clear...
I believe you can have a clear conscience through tunnel vision.
Pete
1974: Brighton Dome 1976: Birmingham Town Hall 1993: London RAH 2008: Manchester Opera House, London O2, Matlock Bandstand, Birmingham NEC 2009: Liverpool Echo Arena 2013 Birmingham
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Post by Byron » Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:57 pm

I've just bin tolled dat me last postin' woz crap so I've back'eeled it.
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
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Post by lizzytysh » Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:41 am

Linda Ronstadt banned for tribute to Michael Moore

Dan Glaister in Los Angeles
Wednesday July 21, 2004
The Guardian


Caused 'bedlam': Linda Ronstadt, pictured here in December 2002, was at the centre of a 'very ugly scene'. Photo: Frederick M Brown/Getty

The American singer Linda Ronstadt got a taste of the acrimony of this polarised election year in the US when she was escorted from a Las Vegas casino after she had dedicated a song to the filmmaker Michael Moore.
Calling Moore a "great American patriot" and "someone who is seeking the truth," she urged her audience to see his film Fahrenheit 9/11.

But Bill Timmins, the manager of the Aladdin hotel-casino, took exception to the introduction of politics into the Nevada holiday city.

"It was a very ugly scene," Mr Timmins told the Associated Press. "She praised him and all of a sudden all bedlam broke loose."

The singer's actions, he said, "spoiled a wonderful evening for our guests and we had to do something about it. As long as I'm here, she's not going to play".

After her comments, dozens from the 1,300-strong audience left,with some reportedly tearing down posters. Ronstadt, 58, was not permitted to return to her suite and was removed from the building.

She had made political comments earlier in the show, dedicating one song to Enron and attacking California's governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger, for labelling his political opponents "girlie men".

Moore, whose film has become the first documentary to reach the number one box office spot in the US, immediately issued a statement in defence of the singer, aimed at Mr Timmins. "For you to throw Linda Ronstadt off the premises because she dared to say a few words in support of me and my film is simply stupid and un-American."

The statement was accompanied by a threat. "Invite her back and I'll join her in singing America the Beautiful on your stage."

Before the one-night engagement, the singer had told a local newspaper: "I keep hoping that if I'm annoying enough to them, they won't hire me back."

In an earlier interview with the San Diego Union-Tribune, Ronstadt explained why she thought Moore's film should be seen.

"I don't try to instruct people how to vote or think," she said. "But Michael Moore has raised some really important points that a lot of people haven't given thought to ... So if I can just lend my voice to his efforts ..."

At the weekend Sir Elton John spoke out against what he termed the "atmosphere of fear" in the US that prevented artists speaking out against the war in Iraq.

"There's an atmosphere in America right now that is deadly," he told Interview magazine. "Everyone is too career-conscious. They're all too scared.

"I don't know if there's been a time when the fear factor played such an important role in America since McCarthyism in the 1950s, as it does now," he added.
My response to this was:

Unbelievable ! ! ! [Unless you lived here, of course.]
Thanks for FW'ing this shaft of light on the U.S.A.,
where democracy is bound to show up one day.

~ Elizabeth

For my dear friends, Biruta and Helven, and any others who have had relatives or themselves have experienced the horrific forms of oppression.....please know that this is not posted oblivious to the pain that has gone before. However, those most devastating forms of oppression, and reactions to those who dare to think otherwise to the prevailing winds, have taken root in actions somewhere. The actions of the proprietor above is one such place. It is not a moot point that this is the country that is stretched worldwide advocating and instituting 'democracy.'
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PERSPECTIVE -- IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE ONE-EYED

Post by Makera » Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:29 am

Hi All ~ :D

It never ceases to amaze me how rabid idealogues, blinded by inverted hatred, cannot see past their convictions (i.e. beliefs based on guess-work and other people's opinions and theories)! Perspective, what a concept.

So, screw the rights of the paying guests to see the entertainment they thought they paid for! Is that it? :shock:

Do any of you have any idea how much tickets to Las Vegas shows cost? Not to mention the travel and accomodation expenses! They pay a hell of a lot more for a 'famous' artist. You don't care, think it's irrelevant? Some people save up for years for such a vacation. They work damned hard for their money in America ( most are lucky to get 1 week vacation each year!). Never mind those who came from over-seas for their Vegas holiday. Can anyone relate yet?

No one, and I mean no one, likes to feel deceived or cheated when they have paid for something. Expecting to get the entertainment as advertised, the Vegas audience got a series of gratuitous political 'statements' instead.

Oh, how dare they be upset! How 'unfair' of the management to support their paying customers and try to salvage whatever good-will they could to ensure their business would not suffer irrevocablely! (Anyone who has run a business in the service or entertainment industry would understand that perfectly!)

Does it occur to anyone that there may be a growing indignation at this constant (stuck in a time-warp) America-Bush bashing that permeates people's recreational activities? There is a back-lash rising against it - you've just seen an example.

Ms Ronstadt only proved her lack of respect and utter contempt for her audience and fans by doing that. How? Because she knows what they paid to see, but didn't care what their expectations were, only wanting to thrust her ideology down their throats. They did not pay to come to a political rally, or an anti-government hate-fest, or a 'Michael Moore Benefit' concert and advertisement (apparently the final straw). How duplicitous is that! (Even Susan Sarandon and Tim Robbins have a little more integrity than that!)

Why can't she hold her own political rally to propound her beliefs? Why do it with such blatant disregard for the sensibilities of her audience? Did she really think they would not be outraged by her disrespect and insult to them?
If one were cynical, one could suggest she did it for just that reason - to get the maximum publicity for being controversial and outrageous (just like her 'hero'!). Any publicity is considered 'good' publicity for artists slipping in sales and/or 'fame' (a known fact). :idea:

'Freedom of speech' is too often touted, mindlessly, as a justification for the worst violations of a 'right' that, by implication, carries considerable responsibility.
Others have rights too. When you impinge on the rights of others, you are not 'exercising your rights', you are only abusing them!

There's a saying that, "Freedom of speech favours the eloquent". This of course implies an intelligent sense of balance and propriety. (What a concept, eh?) ;)


~ Makera
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Post by lizzytysh » Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:46 pm

Hi Makera ~

The deeper meaning of that saying, "Freedom of speech favours the eloquent," is that only the eloquent are granted the right to speak. The voices of those absent the benefits of education and training are given no/have no voice.

Their focus highly dependent upon the ideas/directives of others are those whose 'entertainment' can be ruined/lost with the turn of a phrase or a sentence. An entire evening of entertainment can be lost due to a dedication? Fragile are those beings. Hmmm......I know some conservative folks who, in response to the dedication, might turn to their neighbour seated at their table and quietly say, "I don't think so!" and then taken another swallow of their drink, perhaps a drag off their cigarette, and actually feel that for themselves, they had put Linda's dedication properly in perspective........and then continued their appreciation of the remainder of the show for which they'd spent their great amount of money.

"...dozens from the 1,300-strong audience left,with some reportedly tearing down posters." Does this give any sense of the true numbers? Perhaps, there's something to be said for the significance that those financially able to indulge themselves in those high-priced tickets and travel expenses would behave so uncivilized as to tear down posters on their way out.....as though they had the right! After all, someone had said something with which they disagree. Is that or is that becoming the 'American way'?

I'm seeing an awful lot of focus on money in your response, Makera :wink: .

~ Lizzy
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Post by Makera » Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:32 pm

Hi Liz ~ :D

Perhaps a refresher from the dictionary may help with understanding that 'eloquence', 'intelligence', and wisdom having nothing to do with "education", or any particular "training". (America's famous Will Rogers was a good example). No one is barred from speaking here. All that is expected is that the appropriate forum be used.

Your 'focus' was interesting, i.e. on the few who reacted physically (every group will have those who choose to vent by 'action'). Admittedly, a basic understanding of psychology does help to put that in perspective. So, you believe that the "silent majority" wouldn't exist in this particular instance? Really!

The "focus on money" is also yours. I only tried to find a point through which everyone can relate to some degree, to show another perspective on why they would be irate. Americans, in particular, I have observed are very 'money conscious'. You just proved it. ;) You conveniently forgot that I (and my family) chose to be homeless, twice, rather than compromise our principles for money. (btw, Brits and Aussies would be shocked to know what the basic wage is in the US.)

More revealing is that the real "focus" of what I said, you chose to ignore. Interesting. :idea:

~ Makera
Last edited by Makera on Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by lizzytysh » Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:22 pm

Hi Makera ~

Why would you presume that my highlighting your focus in your reaction to my original posting would be that my [personal] focus is money? Or, that it has any merit from my perspective in this debacle. Don't forget that this is what you led with: "So, screw the rights of the paying guests to see the entertainment they thought they paid for! Is that it? :shock: "


I don't need a dictionary, nor a refresher, to know that Will Rogers was famous and loved, but not because his speaking abilities were the norm for someone in his position. Very true that education/training/etc. aren't essential for eloquence; however, they certainly go a long way in its development ~ learning words and the correct ones to use. Movies are made about those who have come by it without benefit of the education and training. Those who can't express themselves so well, however, typically get silenced.

The show of Linda Ronstadt was an appropriate venue/'forum' for commenting on something high on the minds of those in America; presuming them to have a mind, after all, and not being slaves to having 'fun.' Anyone who knows of Linda Ronstadt knows that political commentary is not out of the norm with her. She dated the Governor of California for some time, and has not depoliticized herself since the comments she would tend to make even during that period. "Muffins or War" is the appropriate forum for this particular posting, as well.

It was "dozens" who left, "some" amongst them tearing down posters, i.e. the 'bedlam' cited included that action. The original action was, of course, dozens getting up from their seats to leave. However, dozens means more than one....may have been 24, or even 36, or even 48. Even at 100 [which it wasn't, as "dozens" wouldn't have been the word choice], that left 1,200+ who didn't get to see the show that they had paid for. [An issue that you seem to think has merit that everyone ~ here? on the Forum? in America? ~ can relate to and agree with.] The nature of your posting gives the impression that you have embraced or are embracing the focus on money in America. You used it as a supporting point of your argument.

Of course I'm going to highlight those ill-behaved people who feel it's their right to deface the property of the hotel, when you're pleading their case for having been ripped off by Linda Ronstadt. In fact, both they and the proprietor had far greater responsibility than Linda, in 1,200+ people missing out on a show that they had wanted to see [even for free, Makera, had that been the case]. However, the proprietor did 'validate' their actions, and empower them and others toward future happenings by bringing everything to a close. I certainly hope that he had the decency to refund their money to those willing to stay!

It's really presumptious of you to presume that those of the 'silent majority,' whose evening of 'entertainment' was not contingent upon the performer's having recommended a film and spoken well of its producer, held similar views to those who left. We all have choices on our behaviour.

Let me see, money-related words in your posting, and how could I think that money was an issue with you in making your point:

~ "rights of the paying"
~ "paid for"
~ "cost?"
~ "expenses!"
~ "pay a hell of a lot more!"
~ "save up for years" [some do, yes, but for the most part, of those non-regulars, it's simply 'this-year's choice']
~ "for their money"
~ "feel deceived or cheated when they have paid for something" [hmm! I don't like that feeling when not a cent has been spent ~ no money issue there with me!]
~ "to support their paying customers" [I guess the 1,200+ who missed the show, that they did not choose to get up and leave, got in for free!?!]
~ "whatever good-will they could to ensure their business would not suffer irrevocably!" [You know, Makera, I've done a lot of waitressing ~ from truck stops to complimentary flaming desserts at brunch. I've had to soothe a lot of ruffled feathers, for reasons not of my own making. Whether it's a pleasant apology and free dessert for the disenchanted at the truck stop; or a pleasant apology and a free drink, extended by management for 1,200+ people ~ you'd be amazed at people's resilience at having their entire evening ruined :wink: . You'd be amazed at the number of "No problem :D !"s that follow such gestures.

Does it occur to you that there may be a growing indignation [by people solidly-rooted in the 21st-century ~ including those in the military] regarding the increasing number of innocents dying overseas; and to whom "permeates people's recreational activities" [whatever you do, don't get in the way of Americans having 'fun'!] is of steadily-decreasing importance? For at least 1,200+ it didn't interfere......but, I guarantee you, being shuttled out of that huge room, certainly did.

~ Lizzy
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Post by Midnight » Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:41 pm

Jerry Fink, the reviewer for the Las Vegas Sun said Ronstadt lopped off about 20 minutes from the show, walking away from an encore portion of the concert.
The incident capped a generally lackluster, unenthusiastic performance by one of the top singers of the '70s and '80s.

The Baltimore Symphony Orchestra opened the concert. The highlight of the 30-minute segment was a rendition of George Gershwin's "Rhapsody in Blue," featuring pianist Terrance Wilson.

Ronstadt began with several songs from the 1920s, '30s and '40s she and arranger Nelson Riddle recorded, among them "Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered," "Someone to Watch Over Me" and "Straighten Up and Fly Right."

She performed Cole Porter's "Get Out of Town," Frank Loesser's "Never Will I Marry" and jazz great Billy Strayhorn's "Lush Life."

And then she gave fans some of what they came for, several of her hits from the '70s and '80s, including "Just One Look" (1979), "Ooh Baby, Baby" (1978) and "Somewhere Out There" (1987).

Although she still has that powerful, distinctive voice, Ronstadt was merely going through the motions.

The only song she had trouble with was "Blue Bayou." She stumbled over the lyrics, seemed to gasp for breath at one point and ended the song in Spanish, screaming the words rather than singing them.

Her performance was uninspired and generally flat. She lacked stage presence, doing little more than sleepwalk from song to song.

The fiasco at the end was the most exciting part of the show.
So, maybe she realized she had lost the crowd. Nothing like a "dangerous" dedication to Michael Moore to get some press. Maybe Leonard should try this when his new album debuts. During a press conference he could discuss how "afraid" he is living in Bush's America. He could dedicate Dear Heather to dear Michael. That ought to be good for a solid month of free promo's on CNN and NPR.
At the weekend Sir Elton John spoke out against what he termed the "atmosphere of fear" in the US that prevented artists speaking out against the war in Iraq.
Oh, puleeze. You can't get the "artists" to shut-up. Bashing Bush is a blood sport here. It gets you invited to all the A-List parties.

Also, Mr. Timmins, the man who booted Linda Ronstadt is British. 8)
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Post by Makera » Fri Jul 23, 2004 5:03 pm

Liz ~

Obfuscation by grandiloquent verbosity and non sequitur, is not a cogent argument.

The over-lap of your posting with my additions for clarification in edit, may have contributed to your misapprehension.

I have stated my points clearly enough to be properly understood. One needs only to read it without projection.

Finis


~ Makera
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Post by Makera » Fri Jul 23, 2004 5:16 pm

Midnight ~ :lol: :wink: 8)
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Post by Byron » Fri Jul 23, 2004 5:59 pm

1,200+ was the figure given above, after Elizabeth did the maths for us. Allowing for those people who had the choice to leave when and how they did, it still leaves us with quite a coincidence, when you realise that it is very nearly the number of bodybags, required for US servicemen and women since Bush declared from the aircraftcarrier that the war was over!!!!!!!!!!!

Why attack Elizabeth when you should stop farting about with words and issues over who said what in Las Vegas and stop to give a moments thought to each and every mother who bore each of those young men and women killed since the 'end of the war.'

Talk about avoiding the real issue ???

Elizabeth has raised the matter of the agonies which mothers have gone through, in several of her previous postings over the last 18 months or so.

Get to grips with the facts and open your eyes. But as usual, there are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

America has done no wrong. Fact.

It is Bush and a few friends are the ones who are doing the wrong.

If you cannot understand that statement then you must have difficulty in distinguishing between 'objectivity' and 'subjectivity.'

Bush and his friends made the decisions which sent people to their deaths. Please tell us who we should 'bash' if we are wrong to keep having a go at Bush. He's the one at the top of his particularly smelly heap and he's the one who took the credit for winning the war. Some victory!!!!!
Last edited by Byron on Fri Jul 23, 2004 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by lizzytysh » Fri Jul 23, 2004 7:12 pm

Newsflash! Newsflash!

Makera ~

Perhaps facts of this nature ~ from Reuters ~ might interest you :wink: . War ain't all bad :shock: ! After all, who wants to go under the knife of an unpracticed physician :roll: ?
Bigger breasts offered as perk to U.S. soldiers
Plastic surgery available on taxpayers' dime
Updated: 10:34 a.m. ET July 22, 2004NEW YORK -

The U.S. Army has long lured recruits with the slogan “Be All You Can Be,” but now soldiers and their families can receive plastic surgery, including breast enlargements, on the taxpayers’ dime.

The New Yorker magazine reports in its July 26th edition that members of all four branches of the U.S. military can get face-lifts, breast enlargements, liposuction and nose jobs for free -- something the military says helps surgeons practice their skills.

“Anyone wearing a uniform is eligible,” Dr. Bob Lyons, chief of plastic surgery at Brooke Army Medical Center in San Antonio told the magazine, which said soldiers needed the approval of their commanding officers to get the time off.

Between 2000 and 2003, military doctors performed 496 breast enlargements and 1,361 liposuction surgeries on soldiers and their dependents, the magazine said.

The magazine quoted an Army spokeswoman as saying, “the surgeons have to have someone to practice on.”

Meanwhile, of course, as Byron has cited......many die, while many others are maimed and incapacitated; whilst in the "cradle of the best and the worst" ~ and Las Vegas, the mecca of money, greed, and addiction ~ the show goes on. How 'uncomfy' to be reminded of deaths, en masse, whilst out for a good time.

Byron ~ The last 'count' I heard, was 900, but that may have been since the war "ended," rather than overall. Interesting how the term "troops" seems once-removed from the term "soldier" ~ the latter just seems a bit too 'personal' for reporting, doesn't it?

Having read your posting without projection, Makera, I have properly understood it. Everything I said, remains. Imagine.
Why do it with such blatant disregard for the sensibilities of her audience? Did she really think they would not be outraged by her disrespect and insult to them?


And you are presuming to know the "sensibilities" of her audience? Particularly when the evidence of your "sensibilities" appears to be solidly in the minority of that audience. I certainly didn't see where her "audience" was outraged; however, I did see where "dozens" out of over 1,300 were. Mighty small component to qualify as the whole ~ speaking of bending data! "Disrespect and insult"? Interesting ~ that comment. If in that audience, I'd have thought, "Ah! She gives us credit for the ability to think past the pervasive, pro-government propaganda. What a compliment!"


Midnight ~ Just because you come from elsewhere doesn't mean you can't adapt to the value systems of the money handlers. Ask Makera :wink: .

~ Lizzy
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Post by Byron » Fri Jul 23, 2004 7:26 pm

As of yesterday, the figures given on CNN and other media outlets is 'about' 950.
Commentators have stated that the difficulty in ascertaining correct figures is that we are not told of the deaths of the severely wounded, who survive for days and even weeks after their original woundings.
We are told of the death count for each day but not of the total death count as a result of that particular day's events.
Therefore, whatever figures we are given have to be a base line before future corrections of KIA for any given day.

I have edited my previous posting about the 1,200 figure and added some pertinent observations on differences of opinions.

I am not out to get anybody here. But I am appalled at the flippancy and disregard for the loss of life of those who had no choice to 'stand up and leave' their theatre of war, as opposed to others' in their theatre of entertainment. Irony on top of irony.
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
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