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Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:55 pm
by peter danielsen
so there is no just war, but that doesnt mean that a war can not be the most reasonable thing to do in a concrete situation.


Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 5:17 pm
by Makera
Hi Tanya ~ :D

Now that is "verbosity" I enjoy, and endorse. Brava!!

Yes, Tanya, I agree: "the "main danger [of belief]...consists in the banal fact that it's often very, very easy to manipulate people with its help".

And, that "belief" "can be dangerous", is the great point you make.

It takes wisdom to know the difference.

The perspectives on 'belief' reminded me of this:

~ Makera

Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 1:12 am
by Helven
Hi Peter,
The fact that jesus say "I am the truth" could be understood in such a way that no 'believer' can claim to know the truth.
That’s a great idea 8) ! I’ve never interpreted those words in this way – always accepted a banal interpretation, i.e. “I am the truth” = “There’s no other truth”. Very, very interesting and plausible!

And regarding both of your posts – yes, I completely agree. I think it’s impossible to formulate those ideas better than you did. (If anybody would try to express them from the point of view of Buddhism, for example, the notion of “sin” could be replaced by “ignorance”, but that isn’t essential in this case – simply different perspectives.)

Hi Gennelle :D ,

Thank you! I’ll follow the link you’ve offered.

Now I have to disappear again since there’s too much work again. Hope to see you soon.

And my best regards to everyone who’s going to visit New York. I wish you to have a good time!


Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 1:53 am
by Vesuvius
Ciao Helven!

"I am the Way, the Truth, the Life and no man comes to the Father but by me" is the full quote that Peter has posted. Banal??? This saying of Jesus is anything but banal !!!! It is the reason Christianity is so hated. Because He does say "No other Way, No other Truth, No other Life" can bring you to the Father.


Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:23 pm
by peter danielsen
Hi vesuvius

if I have stated this point before on the forum, please forgive me, Im getting old and "long to hold some lady, for flesh is warm and sweet, cold sceletons go marching, each night beside my feet"

but another aspect about jesus saying "Im am the way, the truth" etc is that the greek sentence "ego eimi"(= I am) is also a translation of one of the hebrew words for G.O.D. = jhvh. This word can mean: "I am" or "being" or "becomming" all at the same time.

It is an interesting thought that jesus claim to be G.O.D, and that this God is process. The truth and the way is in this understanding process. I cannot be static. It must be described in a symbolic way. However the symbols we use is not unimportant. It has deep effects whether, as an example, we talk about god as energy or cosmos, or we talk about god as one who is personally concerned about the world, who has entered the world of suffering, and has himself been under this suffering.


Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 3:05 pm
by Makera
Hi Peter ~ :D

Yes, 'God is a verb'! I AM WHO I AM; (I AM That I AM; I Will BE Who I Will BE). The answer Moses received when he asked who he should say had sent him.

When Y'eshua referred to Himself as the Way, the Truth and the Life, (and that no one comes to the Father but by him), is understood as what he represents, as the ultimate example and personification of what it means to BE in Truth and Life.

"In My Name", also needs to be understood as the essence of everything He stood for and proved by example - not as spouting a 'word'.
The 'Name', the 'Word', the 'Logos', is the very essence and vibration of Conscious Beingness, and Creative Force.
A person's name, in ancient times, was chosen to represent their goal and purpose in life, not as a simple label to sound good. Y'eshua (Jesus) = 'he who saves/makes whole'.

~ Makera

Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 3:53 pm
by peter danielsen
Hi Makera,

If jesus as the christ represents an ultimate example of being in truth and life, it is because he is in unity with essentiel being. However he is so under the conditions of finitude, which he because of his unity conquers. We cannot follow his example, but we can have courage to accept that we under the conditions of finitude are accepted although unacceptable, and this courage is given through faith. (paul tillich)


Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 2:46 am
by witty_owl
Helven, No need to apologise for the verbiosity. Yes the theme is important and as I see it, is at the crux of humanity's dilemma.
Nice to see an intelligent well considered reponse to a serious issue as opposed to a conflict of opinions or personal attacks. I may return to this post when time allows for a more detailed response.

Regards, W.O.

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 4:00 am
by Mark B.
Nice to see an intelligent well considered reponse to a serious issue as opposed to a conflict of opinions or personal attacks.
I always think this when someone agrees with me too. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 4:28 am
by Makera
H Peter ~ :D

Yes we can, and are called to, "follow His example". Why did he say, "follow me"? And, "the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to the Father". Jn 14:12

He was the prototype of the ultimate destiny of humanity. As Adam, he brought in the physical vehicle by which we could come to know our origin, and thereby overcome our entanglement in the cause & effect laws of nature (materiality).
He opened the Way by his Victory over death! If it were not possible for us to eventually achieve what he did, the whole event would be meaningless.
Listen to the Spirit of Truth within, not the opinions of others, and sectarian dogma. Remember the Promise. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and bring to your rememberance all things that I said to you." Jn 14:26
(John quotes reference to the Helper; Holy Spirit; Spirit of Truth, five times).
"Therefore, take heed how you hear. For to him who has will more be given, but from him who has not, even what he thinks that he has will be taken away." Luke 8:18
He is our Elder Brother, he showed the is up to us to choose how we follow that example. :idea:

Love & Light,
~ Makera

P.S. "Understanding is never the handmaiden of faith - on the contrary, faith completes understanding." ~ C. G. Jung

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 11:14 am
by peter danielsen
Hi Makera

I think Jesus said "follow me" as a commandmend what we should do. Even though he was aware of the situation of what we could do. We should lay down our life for our brother/sister. We should love God, with all our heart, sould and mind, and our neighbour like our selves. That we however do not , and that we because of sin cannot do this is shown again and again in the new testament, and most radically in the sermon on the mount. You could also read the story about the rich young man in mark 10,17 who has done everythin that he was told by the law and jesus, and then he had to on top of that give up everything he owned(are you willing to do that?) and go following jesus(which meant radical suffering and death, are you willing to do that?).

Some might say now that we dont have to give away everything just some of our wealth. This I would say is not following jesus, but putting your self first, and claiming to be good and full of love by giving just the amount which secures that one is able to live the life one likes.
The same goes for suffering.

But is there then nothing good the world. Offcourse there is, there is genuine acts of love between people every day. This however is and act of the spirit grasping a person so that he is able to love. The situation of sin means that we cannot be sure that what we describe in our minds as deep love isnt just love for one self

Jesus changed everything in the way that the one who is a sinner, is in every repect accepted as a sinner. It is not our destiny to try to elevate ourselves to be semi-goods, embracing eternal love. We can have faith in a god who says : even though you do not actualize absolute love, and even though you do not love thy enimy, you are still accepted, you are still justified, and still a sinner. You cannot do what is good, but you must try so.

If you feel that the helper, the holy spirit is guiding you why dont you follow jesus' words about laying down your life and follow him? John 14.26 says that the spirit will remind you of the words of Jesus, has it reminded of jesus words, or just those whom you feel is affirmative of your own perspective. These a radical demands to you. Not a tool for inner peace, but a tool for peace with God. Peace by being justified as a sinner. You are at the same time a sinner, and justified. This caused scandal then 2000 years ago, as it does today. Human beings wants to be able to justify themselves. They want to be known as gifted with the devine.
Jesus as the christ tells us that every effort to elevate oneself to do status of the devine is demonic. Sooner or later it leads to bloodshed.


Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 3:46 pm
by Makera
Hi Peter ~ :D

I don't think you quite grasped my emphasis on removing the influence and layered accretions of sectarian dogma.
You mentioned the literal level of "laying down one's life for Him", and "giving away everything". Did he tell everyone the same thing? He spoke to the young rich man of what he needed to do to reach the perfection he was seeking.
There are as many variations of "laying down one's life" as there are individual lives, purposes and personalities. One size does not fit all, one interpretation was not intended.
Persecutions come in all forms, suffering also. What people fear most is not death so much as 'social death'! Think about that! How many compromise the truth and what is right for them, for fear of not 'fitting in', being ridiculed or shunned. :idea:

You asked me why I don't "lay down my life", "give away everything and follow Him"? Why would you assume I have not?
Well, I have, by never compromising what was true and just. I and my family have been persecuted. We have chosen (more than once), for the sake of truth and honour, to be on the street, homeless, rather than sell our souls to an avaricious predator for material security. So, I do know what I'm talking about. I LIVE IT! Do you?

By the way, "sin" is a much misused and abused word, loaded with too many unfortunate connotations. It is from the Greek term meaning 'to stumble', or 'miss the mark', a mistake that can be rectified (and met and balanced through karma).
I actually like the acronym S.I.N. : Separation In a Nutshell. Separation from our true nature and origin, which is One with God.

Love & Light,
~ Gennelle Marie

P.S. Isaiah 54:10-17 This is the story of my life, proven over and over. Our vindication, indeed!

Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 5:25 pm
by peter danielsen
Hi Gennelle Marie

I agree with you that social death is one thing that people indeed fear. However what I mean by death is the broader sence of 'non-being'. We are threaten by non being as a result of existence. In an absolute sence by real (physical) death in a relative way by fate. This shows in all parts of life : in the spiritual realm by the relative threat of emptyness, or the absolute threat of meninglessness. In the moral realm by the relative threat of guilt, or the absolute realm of condemnation.

As for the pericope from NT my point is not that you or any should do this or that to follow jesus. We are all imposed to a radical commitment in every case of encounter with the other person. And we can never reach perfection, and we dont have to in order to be accepted, loved by god. This sets us free to go out into the world with a free heart and try to do our best. We are loved even if we fail.

I sincerly am sorry to hear about you and your famlies sufferings. Nobody should be on the street. Nobody should be persecuted because of their faith. The world can be an ugly place, and people can be ugly.

You ask if I live what I talk about. Im not being persecuted by a predator. However this is not the only qualifiction for suffering. I do not lay my life down. I "cheat and I lie, I do what I have to do to get by". I try and I fail.

Thats part of living :to be persecuted by a consiounce given by faith, that will not accept a rightous place to stand.

psalm 22, 1-3 that is the story of my life, the story of deep depression and horror

Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 7:26 pm
by Makera
Peter, you are not "forsaken", my friend!
Yes, sufferings are relative, as I said...they come in all forms. But if it is a 'sin' to condemn others, it follows that it is just as 'sinful' to condemn one's self! We can only do the best we can, and it is not helpful for our growth into understanding to cripple ourselves with guilt.
Our conscience should guide and remind, never condemn. (That is an unfortunate legacy of organized religions and their way of maintaining power and control: enslaving souls).

In case you think I have not "been where you're hanging", read this:

Love & Light,

Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 7:33 pm
by peter danielsen
Well as I said: the gospel demands radical love from us in the encounter with the other person. In this we fail us for perfection. We should not feel guilty. We are guilty. But because it is something we are, and because we are loved by god anyhow, as guilty, we are free to go out in the world, with the realistic point of view that we are not perfect, and neither can be, and that anyone else is not perfect either. This is the ground for mercy towards anyone. Belief in self-rightousness leads to ingnorance towards the other. This is not condemnation of self, or the other. It is love for the self and the other.

This faith sets the heart free from any enslavment of dogma or idea. It leads to deep happiness, as it is centered in gods unconditional love towards man. This in all honesty how I feel about my own existence, passionate, wild, ecstatic love for life and being. Love meaning so much more than sympathy

Ps 22 expresses faith in a god who is there even without faith. So that faith is not yet a nother good deed by the mind and heart

"I know that Im forgiven, but I dont know how I know, I dont trust my inner feelings, inner feelings come and go" LC