"come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

This is for your own works!!!
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Mabeanie1
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Post by Mabeanie1 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:30 pm

Violet wrote: The way Leonard collapsed while up on stage did seem fairly gentle a fall. He looked to be sitting down, then he slowly went forward and then down, perhaps landing on one of the many rugs he used to have on stage.
I was in Valencia Violet, sat centre front with a bird's eye view of the situation as it unfolded. Leonard had been "off his game" from the start of the show. He left the stage at one point before the collapse, something I had never seen him do before - to throw up as it turned out. We learnt afterwards that he had had food poisoning, been violently ill over an extended period and had not eaten anything for obvious reasons. He was leaning on the drum riser (as he had done for much of the show up till then) then simply crumpled to the floor during Bird on the Wire. Nothing to do with a pattern (or not) of passing out, or indeed, his final fall. Any of us half his age would struggle to stay upright in those circumstances. He was much recovered when he played in Barcelona a couple of days later though I didn't personally think he was at his best at that show (I'm sure lots of people would disagree with me).

Geoffrey - I have been reading these exchanges with interest - and a lot of sadness. I too would like to know more but at the same time I do not find anything particularly strange in the limited explanation offered by Robert Kory. For what it's worth, I did not connect the fall and his death within the same immediate time frame. I took the statement to mean that Leonard had had a fall some time during the day (which is why they knew he had had a fall) and then passed away during his sleep that evening/ night. The truth is he was a very sick old man and very sick, old people often die shortly after a fall. I don't think it necessarily means he had a serious head trauma. Just that the fall was the trigger which led to the final failure of his body.

One thing I do find puzzling. Several people here and elsewhere have mentioned leukaemia as a given fact. However, I have never seen it mentioned anyway other than as speculation. How do we know that Leonard had leukaemia? And why, if he had leukaemia and was so weakened and ill (as we saw for ourselves in Adam's video and the October press conference), why was his death sudden and unexpected? Those are my unexplained question.

Wendy
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Violet
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Post by Violet » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:32 pm

Mabeanie1 wrote:
Violet wrote: The way Leonard collapsed while up on stage did seem fairly gentle a fall. He looked to be sitting down, then he slowly went forward and then down, perhaps landing on one of the many rugs he used to have on stage.
I was in Valencia Violet, sat centre front with a bird's eye view of the situation as it unfolded. Leonard had been "off his game" from the start of the show. He left the stage at one point before the collapse, something I had never seen him do before - to throw up as it turned out. We learnt afterwards that he had had food poisoning, been violently ill over an extended period and had not eaten anything for obvious reasons. He was leaning on the drum riser (as he had done for much of the show up till then) then simply crumpled to the floor during Bird on the Wire. Nothing to do with a pattern (or not) of passing out, or indeed, his final fall. Any of us half his age would struggle to stay upright in those circumstances. He was much recovered when he played in Barcelona a couple of days later though I didn't personally think he was at his best at that show (I'm sure lots of people would disagree with me).

Geoffrey - I have been reading these exchanges with interest - and a lot of sadness. I too would like to know more but at the same time I do not find anything particularly strange in the limited explanation offered by Robert Kory. For what it's worth, I did not connect the fall and his death within the same immediate time frame. I took the statement to mean that Leonard had had a fall some time during the day (which is why they knew he had had a fall) and then passed away during his sleep that evening/ night. The truth is he was a very sick old man and very sick, old people often die shortly after a fall. I don't think it necessarily means he had a serious head trauma. Just that the fall was the trigger which led to the final failure of his body.

One thing I do find puzzling. Several people here and elsewhere have mentioned leukaemia as a given fact. However, I have never seen it mentioned anyway other than as speculation. How do we know that Leonard had leukaemia? And why, if he had leukaemia and was so weakened and ill (as we saw for ourselves in Adam's video and the October press conference), why was his death sudden and unexpected? Those are my unexplained question.

Wendy
Hi Wendy.

Thanks for clarifying what happened in Valencia. If you just watch the tape you really can't determine all that.

The only time I saw leukemia mentioned was the Dutch pianist's account, which I mentioned earlier.
Violet
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Violet
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Post by Violet » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:45 pm

I think the reason it felt unexpected was that he was reportedly feeling better than he had been, and was working on various new projects. And so it seems that the fall had the final say in the matter, when it might have been the cancer at a later date.
Violet
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Geoffrey
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Post by Geoffrey » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:54 pm

Violet wrote:I was reading that after a seemingly minor head injury one should not be left alone since symptoms can show up hours later. Going to sleep immediately after a head injury can also be dangerous since one can fall into a coma. Internal bleeding of the brain can take time to build up; this is why one isn't always aware of the imminent danger.

[snip]

Well, Geoffrey, the new year is just getting underway so perhaps something else will come up concerning all this.

(Oh, and I like the purple monk.)
you might well be absolutely right, and may also possibly have stumbled upon the reason for reticence about issuing clearer information. simply putting someone back into bed after a serious fall could be a fatal mistake, and not something one would later want to tell everyone. we do not know if the emergency services were immediately summoned, although it is fair to believe they were not, for otherwise the management would have said so in order to exonerate themselves from any responsibility. i know that doctors are notoriously reluctant to visit people at home, especially in the middle of the night, and the life of an elderly person is often given low priority. leonard was not so famous in california and it is possible they had never heard og him.

thank you for commenting so positively on the monk picture. i was making a cup of tea and did it while waiting for the kettle to boil :-)
------------------------
i intend to answer other messages here as soon as time permits. meanwhile, wendy mentioned video footage that was shared with a lot of people. here is a screen grab that was sent to me. needless to say my eyes welled up with tears when i saw it :-(
leonard.jpg
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Violet
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Post by Violet » Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:32 pm

That's terribly sad, Geoffrey.. and with his wrist so very thin.

You know, even though he seemed frail at that last press conference I still didn't think he was about to die. It's hard to say why. He himself half ironically said he was prone to self dramatization, and yet I think I was hoping that that was indeed the case. Also, the only ailment anyone was speaking of was related to the back. That doesn't immediately send off alarm bells. Whereas if it was known he had cancer it would have changed things considerably.

So, for whatever reason, I wasn't at all expecting to see that terrible news on Twitter. For me it was shocking. Not expected.

And, I'm sorry, but Robert Kory's statement is lacking. As has been said already, it brings up more questions than it answers.
Violet
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juneC
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Post by juneC » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:10 am

Hi Geoffrey

Do I understand from your posts that you knew Leonard personally? Unless I am misreading them it would seem so - I am in awe and envy .. Also the artwork ...that is your own also? I particularly absolutely love the monk picture. Sorry! I had started to type this earlier in the day and had not updated myself with the further posts from yourself, Violet and Wendy before continuing. I see it is indeed your own artwork, and that you did it while waiting for the kettle to boil is amazing! but I suspect 'tongue in cheek'? Looks like several hours/days work at least to me!
That picture of Leonard posted by Adam I hadn't seen before - it is indeed harrowing seeing how thin his poor wrists are and so smartly dressed to the last.
Going back to the matter of Leonard's sudden death there was another comment I had seen which struck a chord with me at the time but I am unable to ascertain who the comment originated from other than a friend of Leonard's and it being published in the Toronto Globe and Mail Nov 16. It was this: "In late September, Cohen told a friend – another former Montrealer living in L.A. – that he had only six weeks to live. That turned out to be accurate."
I expect you will have seen the article yourself Geoffrey, I have been unable to tie this particular comment to a name not having been able so far to find mention of it elsewhere so it may not even be true or misquoted.
Thank you for responding to my previous message Geoffrey, it was much appreciated.

June
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Post by Vicomte » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:37 am

Violet wrote:Hi Geoffrey.

You could check public records, since deaths are recorded. That will at least establish the official cause of death, the time and place.

You may have to check LA and Montreal since there seems to be some conflict as to just where he died. Unless someone here has such information and is willing to share it.

I wanted to mention something else I noticed in one of the recent articles posted at this forum, although I’ve been unable to relocate it. I remembered it was from Maclean’s magazine, and so I’ve been able to find it online. But this particular passage struck me. It's in the context of writer Brian D. Johnson’s meeting with Leonard in 2002. I’ll include the paragraph leading up to the disclosure made by Leonard:
A decade after that first encounter, we met in Los Angeles. I drove right by his modest duplex, missing the address, and passed a man in a suit with a silver beard. Backing up, I realized it was Leonard, waiting for me out front. You remember the little things. Leonard serving lentil soup that he’d had simmering on the stove all afternoon, declaring it to be the best in world. Making chopped liver sandwiches. Refilling little gold-rimmed glasses with red wine, so many times we lose count. Watching him try to fix an old toaster in his kitchen, which lacked a dishwasher. He said he was “handy.”

He recalled how he once passed out in that kitchen for some unknown reason, and woke up bleeding on the floor. He pointed out the spot where his head had splintered a shelf, and how he had mended the wood, almost invisibly.
From: 'The heart will not retreat': How we loved Leonard Cohen, by Brian D. Johnson. http://www.macleans.ca/culture/arts/the ... ard-cohen/

Of course, given the recent fall, one wonders if this prior incident of passing out happened with any frequency.

I know there was his collapse on stage during a concert in Spain. I just looked it up and found this video recording of the incident shot by a Spaniard (I'm assuming) by the name of Carlos Carrascosa, with Leonard's collapse occurring towards the very end:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3upf6BdRXk

My recollection of this incident is that it was due to exhaustion, but I see that stomach cramps and even food poisoning are often cited as the cause. In any event, if you watch the fall Leonard doesn’t seem to be suffering from cramps. He seems to just “pass out.”

Geoffrey, this might be something to look into further. There are a lot of different reasons one might pass out. But, the point is, if there is a pattern of passing out then it’s more likely that that’s what could have happened with the fall that precipitated his death. Even as things stand, it exists at the very least as a possibility. Only, this time he sustained a fatal head injury.
Two days later after the Valencia gig where Leonard collapsed on stage, (the Spanish papers said that it was food poisoning) we were in the front row in Barcelona and I have to be honest, he looked fine and I have to say, definitely not showing signs of exhaustion, unlike later in the final throes of the tour where he had started to look frail, regardless of those fans on here who said he was very fit as he used to skip off stage, which was terribly wrong. Close up he was looking frail and skipping a few yards off stage was not proof of being fit.
Personally I have to say that the cancer Leonard had would have weakened him considerably, it is finding out what actually happened to cause his demise.
I guess it all started for me sometime around Christmas 1967 and now, goodness me, it's.........2018 and over fifty years later.
No one ever listens to me. I might as well be a Leonard Cohen record.
Neil from The Young Ones
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Geoffrey
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Post by Geoffrey » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:07 am

my dear june.

it was good of you to return and write again - thank you!

portraits are simple and quick to do - and never take "several hours". the longer they take to complete, the more dead and flat they become. the quicker they are done the more energy they emit.

i have no knowledge of leonard ever saying he had six weeks to live.

i first met leonard in 1974, when he spoke to me from the stage. we were never bosom pals, merely penpals - of a sort. his eyes always lit up when he saw me coming, and he did insist on sharing a meal with me whenever he came to norway. even though it wasn't always convenient i didn't have the heart to say no. he was never anything but kind, and offered much support when needed. i still have a lot of items in my home given to me by him, although visitors have carried a few things away. if you like i can take a picture or two of some of it.

yes, that screen capture makes me emotional every time i look at it. the skeletal frame, jacket hanging on shoulders, the gaunt, emaciated face attempting a smile, the fleshless wrist - it's all too much. you just want to put your arm around him and hold him close. he was thin by nature, though. the first time i gave him a hug it struck me how bony he was, but this picture was just wicked.

hope to hear from you again :-)
-gx
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Geoffrey
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Post by Geoffrey » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:14 am

Violet wrote:I'm sorry, but Robert Kory's statement is lacking.
i agree, and believe that many eyes close to leonard are currently monitoring this thread, hoping perhaps that it will soon go away. i can assure them it will not.
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Post by solongleonard » Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:03 am

Dear Geoffrey, you are doing excellent work and I hope you will share if you do prove that your beloved Leonard is still alive.
SOME PEOPLE NEVER GO CRAZY.
WHAT TRULY HORRIBLE LIVES
THEY MUST LEAD
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Violet
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Post by Violet » Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:17 am

Geoffrey wrote:his eyes always lit up when he saw me coming, and he did insist on sharing a meal with me whenever he came to norway. even though it wasn't always convenient i didn't have the heart to say no.
It was so good of you to put up with him, Geoffrey (!)

Anyway, one can see why Leonard would have loved you. Two peas in a pod, almost.
Violet
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Geoffrey
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Post by Geoffrey » Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:31 am

Violet wrote:one can see why Leonard would have loved you. Two peas in a pod, almost.
in norwegian we say 'to kinn på samme ræva' ('two cheeks on the same asshole'), but i like the english version better :-)
Last edited by Geoffrey on Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Vicomte
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Post by Vicomte » Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:06 pm

solongleonard wrote:Dear Geoffrey, you are doing excellent work and I hope you will share if you do prove that your beloved Leonard is still alive.
Is that what you what you think Geoffrey is seeking?
I guess it all started for me sometime around Christmas 1967 and now, goodness me, it's.........2018 and over fifty years later.
No one ever listens to me. I might as well be a Leonard Cohen record.
Neil from The Young Ones
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Geoffrey
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Post by Geoffrey » Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:23 pm

Vicomte wrote:
solongleonard wrote:Dear Geoffrey, you are doing excellent work and I hope you will share if you do prove that your beloved Leonard is still alive.
Is that what you what you think Geoffrey is seeking?
"he is not dead, he doth not sleep, he hath awakened from the dream of life"
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juneC
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Post by juneC » Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:41 pm

Thank you once again for responding Geoffrey :) - This is the link to the article I mentioned if you’re interested:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/leo ... e32870140/

I have to say I am even more amazed that you really did complete your ‘buddhist monk’ portrait in minutes rather than hours Geoffrey - the more I look at it the more awesome it seems and so perfectly ‘Leonard’. (I presume you must be an artist by profession?) I hope you don’t mind if I add it to my computer folder of Leonard pictures - compiled purely for my own use and pleasure of course.
Yes! I would love to see pictures of the items you mention that Leonard gave you over the years. I am so very sad that I never got to see/meet him in any context but in a funny way I feel a little closer to him by association in sharing this communication with you, knowing that even though you weren’t “bosom pals” I think you are being rather modest and Leonard was obviously very fond of you.
By the way I presume 'solongleonard' has got the wrong end of the stick as it were ??

June x
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