SOME DAY SOON I PREDICT KWILLIS WILL GO ON ABOUT DOUGHNUTS

This is for your own works!!!
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lizzytysh
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Re: Leonard and this Forum - The Truth Revealed

Post by lizzytysh » Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm

Good on you for bringing attention to that, Cate. Societal awareness begins with individuals making other individuals aware of things as they happen.

No offense to you, either, Teratogen. It's just an error of reference that needs correcting for the benefit and welfare of a segment of our population, who deserve the same respect as everyone else does and that particular term is dismissive of those people's humanity and abilities.


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Re: Leonard and this Forum - The Truth Revealed

Post by Teratogen » Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:53 pm

This thread is not about me.

Meaning does not lie in words. Meaning lies in you. If you have a problem with specific words then it's your problem you must deal with. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is. I don't think less of retarded people. I don't look down on them. I do not hate them. I do not discriminate. I used a word. Get over it.
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Re: Leonard and this Forum - The Truth Revealed

Post by Cate » Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:53 am

Teratogen wrote:This thread is not about me.

Meaning does not lie in words. Meaning lies in you. If you have a problem with specific words then it's your problem you must deal with. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is.
Yep and fare enough – my comment was about me and not you.

I just finished a ten week ‘social skills session’ (we don't actually call it that :) ) with a group of independent teens (came on their own on transit, like to hang out at malls …) in which that specific word came up on a few occasions. I felt a need to respond because not to would have made me a hypocrite (I actually did think about not responding, because I do see your point - but then I’d be full of shit) For the record, and I apologize if I didn’t make it clear in my first post, I in no way assume that you would look down on someone because of a disability - not at all. The teens that I was just speaking about, will live on their own, will have jobs and I hope will have meaningful relationships – one thing they will have to deal with throughout their life is comments such as ‘what are you retarded?’ - that’s just a fact. How they respond (and they do need to respond) is very important and believe me we practiced. please – please don’t think that I think you would ever say something like that.
Okay blah blah I promise I’m finished and that I’m not trying to preach at you just trying to share where I’m coming from.
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Re: Leonard and this Forum - The Truth Revealed

Post by imaginary friend » Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:33 am

Cate,

Just wanted to say thank you for your comments re. 'retarded'.

My nephew is a young Downs Syndrome man. He is now 29 (Good lord – when did that happen?) and about to head out into independent living in a small apartment building, exclusively for 'Young Adults With Disabilities'. (I've mentioned him to you and Violet previously, when I was describing archived daffodils...) He and two of his Downs buddies operate a coffee kiosk in a local rec. centre. They each work 4 days per week, directly interacting with the public.

Gallagher's social skills are enviable. He has great manners, and is very outgoing. He charms most people that he meets. One reason for this is that he went all the way through school with normal kids his own age. Yes, he had various teacher's aides along the way, but he socialized with all the other kids, attended classes with them and patterned his behaviour accordingly. His parents taught him the necessary social skills, recognizing that in order to be accepted, he needed to prove that he could interact and integrate. Just as important, many of the 'normal' schoolkids and their parents went out of their way to accept and interact with him.

When he was a teen, he and I used to go out together sometimes for a day. I was always struck by how popular he was and how easily and warmly he responded to the many people who stopped to say hello to him. Now,he has better things to do than date his aunt, including a hot romance with a young lady who writes him poems. I love him to pieces, and am very proud of him.

Thanks Cate, for understanding the importance of not using words carelessly – even unintentionally, they can damage the hard-earned self respect of someone like my beloved Gal.
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Re: Leonard and this Forum - The Truth Revealed

Post by Cate » Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:55 pm

well this is a bit of a switch isn't it?
Often a thread starts off serious and ends up getting silly, this time it started silly and has gotten serious.

I remember you sharing a story about Gallagher before Sheila, I believe it was about his graduation. It is crazy how fast time can move one day a boy the next a man moving out, working , dating... sounds like your nephew is pretty busy.
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Re: Leonard and this Forum - The Truth Revealed

Post by Teratogen » Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:23 pm

I know it's commonplace for people to get all frenzied over the usage of certain words. I understand the emotional connection to some of these. I understand that it exists, but I don't understand why it exists. I believe people should not exert the energies of their emotive responses to simple words. Many would suggest that words are powerful. Yes, and no. Words, when put together in a way that can not only express but express vividly a certain feeling or idea, that can be a powerful thing. To give an overbearing meaning to one word and condemn it for its definition, that's just plain stupid. Yes, and I chose the word stupid very carefully. Not only is it stupid, but it is careless. Sure, words have definitions, but in what instances are words clearly defined?

I don't feel it is necessary to defend myself here, but seeing as I've upset many people whom I'd consider friends on this board I must apologize with a defense. Retard is a word, is it not? In its general definition it is partisan, not in praise or in condemnation of its subject. It also has a definition that doesn't even have anything to do with a mentally handicapped person. Nowhere in my sentence did I praise or put down retarded people. Read it again. I presented a situation of comedy where I would be exhausted and confused after playing one-on-one basketball against a retarded person who was better than me. The joke isn't even on the retarded person, it is on me! And only because I didn't use a more suitable euphemism or politically correct term is no reason to condemn me either. You give one word or term more bearing than another and that is stupid.
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Re: Leonard and this Forum - The Truth Revealed

Post by GinaDCG » Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:54 pm

Interesting issues, Tetragon. Our culture has a long-standing habit of taking perfectly legitimate words and coding them as motivational-clues. Take all those perfectly good Anglo-Saxon bodily function words. They, such as "fuck" or "shit" are dirty whereas the Norman French versions, "fornicate," "intercourse," and "defecate" are OK. Nowadays instead of focusing on bodily function descriptions we turn person-category words into "dirty" words (though the better description would be politically incorrect words.)

Yes, the wrangling over syntax is strange. "There's a blaze of light in every word/ It doesn't matter which you
heard . . . "

But, we do live in a society, and individually, we can not control how society wishes to express itself. -- kind of like being a bird in the middle of a flock; the flock banks right for no reason that you can discern but even if you cry and cackle "No, let's go THIS way! Why are we going THAT way!" the flock will pay you no mind and if you want to remain a member you need to bank right with everyone else.

What we now call the "N" word," and now the "R" word have acquired a pejorative meaning so that their use now indicates the users wishes to subjucate and denigrate a class of people. That's the meaning these words have assumed. And it is the flock of English speakers who assign meaning, so if we individuals continue to fly straight and use these words, while trying to insist that we individually do not load these old words with their current, perhaps faddish, pejorative meaning, we will be left behind.

I remember having nannies when I was growing up -- my mom had been seriously ill when she was younger and so my father hired nanny/maids help for her when I and my sisters were small. I never noticed that my nannies did not have the same skin color as myself or my family -- it just never occurred to me. I remember when I was starkly confronted with this concept of "race;" it hit me square in the face and left my 7 year old self in wonderment that adults made such a big deal about a skin color that I had never even noticed before. My nanny that day, Francis, explained that people of her skin coloring and ancestry were called "Negroes. But personally, I don't like that word. I prefer the shortened version -- 'nig'r' -- as it seems more friendly. So Gina, if you have to call me by my race, just call me Francis Your 'Nig'r' Friend." Note, I had this conversation with Francis in 1961.

But times change. And so does language. Now the personal memory and meaning of that word has been usurped. I must bow to the convention of the flock if I wish to accurately communicate. If I use that "N" word in conversation (and I am aware that moderators may swoop down and delete or edit this post!) I will never be able to hold up my personal definition against the societal definition the word has since acquired. Is this banishment of the "N" and "R" words good? or bad? I dunna. But it has happened.
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Re: Leonard and this Forum - The Truth Revealed

Post by Violet » Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:19 pm

.. hmm.. hi everybody.. um..

.. oh, I know what I wanted to say.. that the turn this thread has taken has "retarded" the original thrust of this situation, which was, I thought.. (or at least the "reply" part was).. to mount a serious counter attack.. (okay argument).. against one M. P.. (or Marisha Peabody, if you will)..

THERE.. I here used the secondary meaning of this word, and got us back on track.. (I hope)..

Of course, the monstrous Marisha Peabody (and I don't mean to offend real monsters when I use that adjective, by the by) should really be weighing in here herself, since wasn't it SHE who had already made a big stink either praising or condemning (I'm not sure which) such Political Correctness, et. al. (ibid., alpha, beta, etc.) to begin with ????????? (!)

Oh, and for further deep background information.. as well as for those who are fairly new to these parts.. the REAL M.P. (that's Master Programmer, if you remember.. I just made up the Peabody part).. anyway, the REAL M.P. is the person BEHIND all of these nefarious guises.. the one and only Lord M.. And actually, speaking of (the mysteriously missing) Lord M... just how cowardice (yes, I mean c-o-w-a-r-d-i-c-e) is it that he hide out like this???.. or are we to believe these "alters," let's call them (Marisha being perhaps a rather benign case, when you compare "her" with that last rampant rascal he set loose on us a while back) (whose name curiously escapes me right now.. oh, Harry something..).. now what was I saying???.. oh, are we to believe that these seeming "accidents of nature" are really alters (that's [synthetic] alternate personalities, by the way), and as such are in no way cognizant of the wrath they are inflicting on us, due to the fact that they themselves are being so programmed???.. (for some reason this is now reminding me of the last big "reveal" scene in Tootsie... remember that flick?)..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlXE1Yq0AnQ
FULL SCREEN..

.. actually, your Lordship, I didn't realize until just now that you’re really Dustin Hoffman.. hmm.. that gives me a bit more to work with..

Oh, and to those who innocently claim to be "confused" by all of this.. well, OF COURSE YOU'RE CONFUSED!!!!!.. do you think treachery is just a four letter word???.. actually, it's a.. one, two, three.. nine letter word.. (and don't get me started on the number 9.. that's for a different thread, in any event)..

Okay, so let's all just calm down here and start to strategize..

.. now, Mr. Marisha.. you may be laying low now, thinking you've got everyone just where you want them with all this "R" word confusion.. well, you're gonna have to load up that lever action shot gun and think again.. no one's going anywhere.. in fact,
le baroness I.F.'s got her pink leather skating outfit on, and is practicing some killer jumps.. so.. (I love that you skate with a whip, I.F.. it's too bad the Olympic Committee won't allow those).. (I mean, talk about political correctness.. geez)..

t.b.c...



much later edit: made a few snip snips, but nothing too noteworthy.. just that "wordiness" problem again..
Last edited by Violet on Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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carm
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Re: Leonard and this Forum - The Truth Revealed

Post by carm » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:48 pm

I remember having nannies when I was growing up -- my mom had been seriously ill when she was younger and so my father hired nanny/maids help for her when I and my sisters were small. I never noticed that my nannies did not have the same skin color as myself or my family -- it just never occurred to me. I remember when I was starkly confronted with this concept of "race;" it hit me square in the face and left my 7 year old self in wonderment that adults made such a big deal about a skin color that I had never even noticed before. My nanny that day, Francis, explained that people of her skin coloring and ancestry were called "Negroes. But personally, I don't like that word. I prefer the shortened version -- 'nig'r' -- as it seems more friendly. So Gina, if you have to call me by my race, just call me Francis Your 'Nig'r' Friend."
Has a milestone been reached here in the progress of this semantic, at times rhetorical web of thought? Have 'Poetry and Music by the Forum members' allowed themselves to focus on the importance of understanding the 'bigger picture' within this shared thread? In contributing to this stream of information/ideas, surely ones wisdom has become richer as the content/context becomes more constructive in thought as well-connected concepts bridge domains and open the floodgates of logomachy.

FYI: It doesn't take much to start people arguing about words, but there's no quarrel about the origin of "logomachy." It comes from the Greek roots "logos," meaning "word" or "speech," and "machesthai," meaning "to fight," and it entered English in the mid-1500s. If you're a word enthusiast, you probably know that "logos" is the root of many English words ("monologue," "neologism," "logic," and most words ending in "-logy," for example).

What started out as a somewhat cavalier thread, has seemingly produced some meaningful conversation and insights even though individual thoughts employed turns of reflection and rhetoric on a variety of personal subjects, which often seemed to repay the author’s own self-absorption far more than the reader’s interest. How do we overcome the limitations of the deeply personal so as to reach some unique shared perspective? Or, do/should we?

Just as in the use of language there is no substitute for intelligence and sensitivity. Their presence makes possible the combination of substantial reading, detailed and rewarding discussion, articulating ones distinguished voice at its best.

Surely a decent respect for each other's claims and communications can lead to the preparation of thought, where various points of view complement each other. Are we able to meet at various levels or junctures so as not to suffer from individual myopia to the extent that we ignore each other's points of view? If we are able to refrain from imposing too much of our own enthusiasms within our shared conversations, the wrangling within this thread, might just give way to fruitful interchanges and mutual enlightenment. :razz:

"Emancipation came to the colored race in America as a war measure. It was an act of military necessity. Manifestly it would have come without war, in the slower process of humanitarian reform and social enlightenment."
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Re: Leonard and this Forum - The Truth Revealed

Post by Alsiony » Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:26 am

I like this thread.

(Just thought I'd say)

A
x
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Much misunderstood... was the 'Hippie' with a reality fixation...
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Re: Leonard and this Forum - The Truth Revealed

Post by carm » Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:17 am

Might we be reminded of Leonard Cohen's words…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e39UmEnqY8

The birds they sang
at the break of day
Start again
I heard them say
Don't dwell on what
has passed away
or what is yet to be.
Ah the wars they will
be fought again
The holy dove
She will be caught again
bought and sold
and bought again
the dove is never free.

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in.

We asked for signs
the signs were sent:
the birth betrayed
the marriage spent
Yeah the widowhood
of every government --
signs for all to see.

I can't run no more
with that lawless crowd
while the killers in high places
say their prayers out loud.
But they've summoned, they've summoned up
a thundercloud
and they're going to hear from me.

Ring the bells that still can ring ...

You can add up the parts
but you won't have the sum
You can strike up the march,
there is no drum
Every heart, every heart
to love will come
but like a refugee.

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in.

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in.
That's how the light gets in.
That's how the light gets in.

…Thank you Leonard!
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Re: Leonard and this Forum - The Truth Revealed

Post by lonndubh » Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:30 am

carm wrote:There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in.
Turn out the light
Its getting too bright-
Where's William :?:
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Re: Leonard and this Forum - The Truth Revealed

Post by carm » Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:59 am

Turn out the light
Its getting too bright-
Grab some sunglasses, she says with a wink! :D
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Re: Leonard and this Forum - The Truth Revealed

Post by IMM » Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:19 am

Alan Turing must be rolling in his grave :)
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Re: Leonard and this Forum - The Truth Revealed

Post by carm » Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:48 am

Alan Turing must be rolling in his grave…
But why is Alan Turing rolling in his grave, is it…

because he adopted the conviction that all phenomena, including the workings of the human brain, must be materialistic, or perhaps…

because of his idea that you could use, in effect, a theorem in logic which sounds to the untrained ear rather absurd; namely that from a contradiction, you can deduce everything, or maybe…

because he devised a technique termed Turingismus or Turingery for use against the Lorenz cipher used in the Germans' new Geheimschreiber machine (‘secret writer’) which was one of those codenamed ‘Fish’, or more importantly…

because he also introduced the Fish team to someone else who, under another person’s guidance, went on to build the Colossus computer, the world's first programmable digital electronic computer, which replaced simpler prior machines and whose superior speed allowed the brute-force decryption techniques to be applied usefully to the daily changing ciphers?

Am I even thinking of the right aforementioned Alan Turing?

By the way, I am done for the day! :lol:
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