why I will not criticise the poetry of others

This is for your own works!!!
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~greg
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Re: why I will not criticise the poetry of others

Post by ~greg » Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:55 am

vern.silver wrote:Consrtuctive criticism is a good thing but comments like 'your poem is a piece of crap' serves no purpose other than to cause upset and often turns into a flaming debate that has nothing to do with the poem.

your thread is a piece of crap
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Violet
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Re: why I will not criticise the poetry of others

Post by Violet » Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:13 am

... do you know Mr. Sirus, by any chance?... [smiley, if I used them]
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News Gal
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Re: why I will not criticise the poetry of others

Post by News Gal » Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:21 am

Marisha wrote:Hi Newsgal, personally I wouldn't let racist or sexist poems "just be" as you advise, but if you want to walk on the other side then that's your choice.

Hi Vern, who said "if you believe that you have valid advice to offer, then use PM to communicate with them"- I don't think there is a Charter or any rules that says that. If a writer only wants flowers and chocolates then they just have to make the point in their post. I am relatively new here but i can't believe that anyone here would ever post critiques to a post marked "compliments only".

Anyway if you are relatively new here as well then I'm not sure you should be making up rules. It's a real shame that posters might be inhibited to post critiques, revisions, or just comments because of your approach. The writer then loses out on the chance of her poem "taking off" and begin generally discussed. A PM is not wrong but then issues arise of whether the sender wants it posted to stimulate debate. It is an even worse shame if people don't bother to post here because it becomes just a place to pat each other on the head. There are so many sites like Allpoetry where you can receive flowers and chocolates for anything you write. Is that really the best we can do in honour of a writer as brilliant as Leonard Cohen?

I don't see our opinions converging but I do think it would be a simple and pragmatic solution for posters like Newsgal to mark her poems "compliments only"

Best wishes

Marisha
You really have an attitude problem, especially with me. Get over yourself and leave me alone.

Also, Vern's been here a hell of a lot longer than you, so maybe you need to take your own advice and back off. I won't post ANY of my work here because of attitudes like yours. Thanks a lot, I hope you're freaking happy.
Last edited by News Gal on Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
ᎤᏩᎬᏗᏒ ᏥᎪᏩᏘᎲ, ᎯᎩᎾᎵᎢ, ᎠᏓᎯᏍᏗ ᎨᏐ. Uwagvdisv tsigowatihv, higinali'i , adahisdi geso (I've seen the future brother, it is murder.)
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Re: why I will not criticise the poetry of others

Post by News Gal » Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:22 am

~greg wrote:
vern.silver wrote:Consrtuctive criticism is a good thing but comments like 'your poem is a piece of crap' serves no purpose other than to cause upset and often turns into a flaming debate that has nothing to do with the poem.

your thread is a piece of crap

ROTFLOL
ᎤᏩᎬᏗᏒ ᏥᎪᏩᏘᎲ, ᎯᎩᎾᎵᎢ, ᎠᏓᎯᏍᏗ ᎨᏐ. Uwagvdisv tsigowatihv, higinali'i , adahisdi geso (I've seen the future brother, it is murder.)
Marisha
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Re: why I will not criticise the poetry of others

Post by Marisha » Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:16 am

vern.silver wrote: To suggest that by merely posting a poem opens it to commentary can also be seen as setting a rule -

Vern
Only by someone who is really desperate to make a point!!! The clue is in the word "open".
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Re: why I will not criticise the poetry of others

Post by Marisha » Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:20 am

News Gal wrote:

You really have an attitude problem, especially with me. Get over yourself and leave me alone.
I won't post ANY of my work here because of attitudes like yours. Thanks a lot, I hope you're freaking happy.
I am "freaking happy" if people don't boast how they never revise their poems. Also, I am happy to go back to the Haiku thread!
Cate
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Re: why I will not criticise the poetry of others

Post by Cate » Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:09 pm

News girl - are you saying you don't want to post because of Marisha. I'm sorry this doesn't make sense to me, I'm being serious, if you don't like Marisha why on earth do you care about potential comments that she may make?

Vern it seems that you are suggesting a quiet section, where people post finished work - end of discussion with the exception of a few polite comments and perhaps hidden pms?
That sounds boring. Personally I like the discussions that open up - after comments start to be made. I like receiving criticism (like IF said even from the trolls) I'm still very much in a learning stage and I truly appreciate it when somebody takes the time to do so either in the thread or privately, very rarely do I take it personally.
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Re: why I will not criticise the poetry of others

Post by News Gal » Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:44 pm

I actually ignored Marisha and her horrid attitude. But I won't post because it seems every week there's someone getting torn to pieces by someone else. I for one am also tired of being treated as though I'm a moron.

It's better to get "constructive criticism" from real live people anyway. The Net is too impersonal.
ᎤᏩᎬᏗᏒ ᏥᎪᏩᏘᎲ, ᎯᎩᎾᎵᎢ, ᎠᏓᎯᏍᏗ ᎨᏐ. Uwagvdisv tsigowatihv, higinali'i , adahisdi geso (I've seen the future brother, it is murder.)
anunitu
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Re: why I will not criticise the poetry of others

Post by anunitu » Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:55 pm

Just FYI, this Forum DOES have a TOS(Terms of service) listed, I post its contents here, so that people are aware what it entails.

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Re: why I will not criticise the poetry of others

Post by vern.silver » Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:18 pm

No, I am not suggesting that at all. I believe that I've made it quite clear that my own posted poems are open to commentary, positive and negative. I think I also made it quite clear that I think this sort of thing is healthy in helping a person grow as a poet or even just as a person who enjoys poetry and wants to follow along on these threads. But there are positive and negative ways in which to do this and that is why I opened up this debate.

I was hoping we could work towards a way to make this happen while still showing respect to others. When I read a really bad poem here (in my opinion), one that makes me grit my teeth and I feel the ache down to the bone, I simply choose to ignore it and move on. I do not feel compelled to write a hurtul comment.

I personally don't believe most people post their poems here to be workshopped. Am I wrong? Maybe. But given the turns many of these threads take once the commentary starts I don't think so.

Do people post here looking for praise? Likely, but that certainly is the wrong reason to post them. If you want the praise you should be able to take the criticism. But that being said, the criticism does not need to be hurtful. It may have not been intended to be hurtful, but the fact is most of us have never met each other and don't know that person on the other side of that comment. How often have we hurt someone we love by a remark that wasn't intended to be hurtful?

I guess the best thing to do is to learn to filter the commentary much like we would filter impurities out of our drinking water. They are always going to be there, bad taste and all - but we still need to drink that water to live.

Greg - by the way, you are absolutely right!!

Vern
"Clarence said a striking thing about rowing that I've always valued ... that he liked rowing because you were approaching life backward. You could clearly see the past, and you glanced quickly at the future over your shoulder.' Jim Harrison.
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Re: why I will not criticise the poetry of others

Post by anunitu » Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:35 pm

The reason I posted the TOS is to remind everyone on this Forum, that we are here at the discretion of jarkko, he is Master here, and I personally feel that this Forum is jarKKo's home, and I try to show respect when in the house of a friend.
As the owner of this Forum, jarkko can at his discretion decide if a section fits his personal vision for his Forum, and he might decide to erase something that does not reflect that vision.


I thank jarKKO for his indulgence in allowing many people to express themselves here.

As I understand the main purpose of this Forum, it is to discuss a great Poet and Singer, everything else is because jarKKo allows it to be posted.

I would like here to thank jarKKO for hosting this Forum, and for being kind in his assessment, when it comes to political discussion, and the Poetry section in general.
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Re: why I will not criticise the poetry of others

Post by evewaldman » Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:37 pm

Whew! What a long thread, and a heated one, this has turned out to be! I will go for kindness and generosity. Vern, I agree with your original post.
I am fascinated by the Infinite Haiku thread and love the way it twists and turns as each person adds his or her own perception and persona. I really don't care about the so-called quality of each haiku, although every once in awhile I admire the way someone has put words together. It looks like fun. A game. If it stops being fun, I'll quit (even though I have just started).
My best,
Eve
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Re: why I will not criticise the poetry of others

Post by Manna » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:24 am

Vern wrote:What makes a person a ‘real’ writer? Does being published make you a real writer? Or does it take wide acclaim? Is it winning awards? Or is it simply having a wide following? I would really like to know. Then i would also like to know who appoints the messenger who informs the rest of us lesser beings so that we may fall down in worship? Or is this a self appointment? Credentials please!!
Replace the word writer in the above with the word counselor. You don’t need any official training, education or experience to hang up your shingle, bring people in, charge them $100/hour and do some ‘counseling.’ Yeah… but you might not be very good at it. You might even end up doing more damage than good. Having some training, education and experience would obviously make you better at it, and other people might take the pixie dust out of their voices when they attribute the title to you.

I don’t call myself writer, but I throw down a few little splats now & then. I show them around because I am interested in what people think of them. Sometimes they see a better way of saying something, sometimes they don’t understand what I meant, and I try to make it better. Of course it came from God/Creator if that’s your perspective, but changes you might make to it would also come from God/Creator, so it would be arrogant to not make them. How dare you think you heard right the first time when She’s trying to tell you it’s not right yet?

Writing poetry is like having a child.
And playing with toys is like being God.

I wonder what Ottone M. Riccio thinks about the capacity to recognize the value of something, but still not like it. I think S. Kubrick’s movies are among the best ever made, but watching them is work. They’re great, but I don’t derive much enjoyment from them. Liking something and thinking it’s good aren’t the same thing. I don’t remember if I’ve ever read a poem written by a forum member here that I thought was good, though I enjoy many.

“Your poem is a piece of crap,” is not a character assassination, it’s a poem assassination. Saying, “The one who wrote this is a piece of crap,” is a character assassination. If anyone thinks my poem is a piece of crap, please please please tell me so we can have a good fight. I like good fights.
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Re: why I will not criticise the poetry of others

Post by News Gal » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:39 am

Manna, here in Connecticut you DO have to have certification and training to be a counselor. That doesn't ring true here at all.

I'm a news anchor and reporter, a journalist--while writing's part of that, I'm not a "writer" in the sense the word's used here. I'm also used to making myself understood in conversational style instead of using synonyms, and using very few words to get the point across. That's Associated Press style, not poetry. What I post on here is written for the ear.

I also don't take art so seriously. It's a hobby for me, and something to enjoy, but not a passion by any means. It's also starting to become less enjoyable after some threads on here and my time at the radio station, where everyone fancies themselves some sort of "sophisticate"(who defines that term now anyway?) because they're Broadway nuts. The attitudes are similar--and disconcerting.

Also, contrary to what some on here may have assumed, I'm not some idiot or rube. I don't need concepts dumbed down for me, and I don't need to be spoken to as though I don't understand English. That's happened every weekend.
ᎤᏩᎬᏗᏒ ᏥᎪᏩᏘᎲ, ᎯᎩᎾᎵᎢ, ᎠᏓᎯᏍᏗ ᎨᏐ. Uwagvdisv tsigowatihv, higinali'i , adahisdi geso (I've seen the future brother, it is murder.)
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Gullivor
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Re: why I will not criticise the poetry of others

Post by Gullivor » Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:37 am

News Gal,

Have you tried the weekdays?
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