have mercy

Debate on Leonard Cohen's poetry (and novels), both published and unpublished. Song lyrics may also be discussed here.
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~greg
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have mercy

Postby ~greg » Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:43 am

Very soon
the navigation line
on top the first page
of the "Book of Mercy" thread
will look like this:
Goto page 1,2,3 ... 200601,200602,200603 Next
and on the last page, like this:
Goto page Previous 1,2,3 ... 200601,200602,200603
But even now, if say someone dimly remembers something
from the middle of the thread, and needs to refresh their
memory of it in order to proceed intelligently, then they have got to click
15 god damn times to get back anywhere near it!

Which, my friends, is one of the things that makes intelligent
and pleasant discussion quite impossible. Although those
involved may not be able to appreciate this, since, as
the saying goes, "they can't see the sock for the thread."

~~~

I suggest that 5 threads, each limited to killing off 10 poems at a time,
would be a much better idea.

And that 10 threads, killing 5 poems each, would be even better.

(But that fifty threads, each one limited to an intelligent,
participant-friendly discussion of a single poem, would
be the best of all possible worlds,
apart from "tempting fate".)

~~~

Clearly the purpose of the "Book of Mercy" thread is to accumulate, in one thread,
as many posts as possible dealing with all and every one of
the 50 poems in Leonard Cohen's "Book of Mercy".

And its determination to do it is absolutely fierce.
So that the thread can boast an extremely high on-topic quotient.

Nevertheless, a suspicion is beginning to grow, exponentially,
among non-participants, that accumulation,
pure and simple, is the thread's only real purpose.

Not that anyone is suggesting, yet, that the project itself is simply trolling.
Or that any of the participants are, literally, anal-retentive,
in a clinical sense of the term.

Just that the psychology that is driving the thread, the way it's going,
is clearly exactly the same as that which drives the average college dude
to carpet his whole apartment with every single beer can
he kills over his entire college presence.

(But perhaps making navigation hazardous for others
IS the objective?)




Have mercy, baby!



~greg
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tomsakic
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Postby tomsakic » Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:02 pm

I more or less agree with you. If the thread has become to big for many to navigate it, I suggest that we retitle it to "Book of Mercy 1-11", and start new thread for next ten pieces.

Of course, the best thing would indeed be to have a thread for each of the prayers :lol:
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lizzytysh
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Postby lizzytysh » Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:55 pm

Of course, the best thing would indeed be to have a thread for each of the prayers
I would love this... especially when there's time enough to reasonably accomplish it. Since there's already flashback stuff to previous verses/poems/psalms/whatever the PC term, getting it sorted now... with enough briar and bramble already there to dig through.

As one might say, have Mercy. At least having 10 in one thread, 5 even better, and 1-each best. It'll be much easier on anyone trying to study these verses. We don't think linear-ly to begin with, so having each of these individually accessible... 8) ~ I even go so far as to suggest that along with the #, the first line [or the jist] be included in the thread title, if they're done individually, to trigger one's memory, if they don't have the book in front of them.

Thanks for interjecting now, Greg. I've felt the same frustration trying to scroll back to find something... and eventually the frustration of that ends up with not even trying.


~ Lizzy
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tomsakic
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Postby tomsakic » Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:19 pm

Of course - as mentioned in the thread itself (I think it was Joe)- we will sort out BoM discussion, edit it, and put it on the website. One day, when we reach #50 and the conclusion.
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Postby Tchocolatl » Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:54 pm

I would go further : I would create a subsection "Book of Mercy" on the forum, like there is a Poetry section, etc.

Into that section I would copy the original link AND create 50 topics for the 50 parts. Yes even though some of them are already discussed in the orginal thread - I'm certain that a neat support for the discussion would bring more thoughs about it and/or that coming back on them will provide a change (maybe) in the first opinions.


AND - the last but not the least :

Participants would be kindly (!) (this time) asked to avoid flooding the topic by opening a new thread in the section each time the discussion inspired them in another direction than the analysis, like for discussion of dreams or love or anything interesting interesting other things. After all it is the book of mercy. he? 8) Please smile at this, it is meant to make you smile.


I repeat : I am very interested in the creation and the reading of that subject - including the side discussions it provides. So in this way or another : Keep your beautiful fervor and... have fun! Cheers! :D
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Postby lizzytysh » Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:00 pm

Of course - as mentioned in the thread itself (I think it was Joe)- we will sort out BoM discussion, edit it, and put it on the website. One day, when we reach #50 and the conclusion.
I agree that this is understood and a great idea... even allowing for that, the participants will do better if they can sort through it for comment, before that day arrives. Being able to revisit what's already been said, as a means of making additional links in one's present thinking, is important. Even at this juncture, I've seen that happening. The more organized, the better for accessing.

I agree that even creating a Book of Mercy section would be a good one. Leonard's book warrants its own section, and it would be a draw in itself. I know there are other good minds out there who can offer their own perspectives that will bring additional light.


~ Lizzy
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Postby DBCohen » Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:55 pm

Greg,

This is very sensible, and I’m sure at least some of the regular participants feel the same as you do. There were some sincere attempts to encourage participants not to stray too far into all kinds of associations, but these attempts have failed miserably. Volume is certainly not a purpose, at least as far is this writer is concerned.

I suggest that Tom will be in charge of organizing the whole business and deciding on when to cut and start a new thread, if he is willing.
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Postby tomsakic » Thu Jan 25, 2007 4:24 pm

Let's do it very simply - when we finish #11, the person who will introduce #12 can do it in new thread (and title it "Book of Mercy, Part II", or "Book of Mercy #12-20" or something like that).


Also, if the existing thread is too big, there's option of "splitting" in Moderator's keyboard, so I can divide it into "Book of Mercy #1-5" and "Book of Mercy #6-11". Just say so:-)
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Postby Simon » Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:35 pm

Hi Greg,

Page access in large threads is indeed an annoying problem with most forum software around.

I would go along with Tchoco’s suggestion of a new BoM section in The Poetry Place, in which, let’s say, there could be ten basic threads dealing with 5 psalm each. This would be arbitrary and may not respect what we are begining to see as commun typology of certain psalms. I.10 and I.11 for example are both rather domestic compared to the first nine psalm and would not fall in the same thread despite of their natural similarity. But that would be a minor compromise.

I believe the administrator can not only spilt but also move threads or portions of threads to new locations, so technicaly it should be possible to also split the discussion about the first ten psalms in two threads of five and move them to the new BoM topic section.

If this new section is to be created, chances are that additionnal threads will eventually be started on related topics making the first ten originals slowly drift down the page. Don’t know if that could become a problem. Also, dividing the first ten in two threads will still leave us with threads of more then 15 pages and the problem will remain the same with any future grouping of five threads.

All and all, this is just a game. Giving it a special status with a section of its own would turn the whole thing into something rather serious...

Isn’t this typical of our day and age, media discussing media in a kind of virtual loop…
Cohen is the koan
Why else would I still be stuck here
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Joe Way
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Postby Joe Way » Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:13 pm

Amen! I've found myself having to re-read the entire thread on a couple of occasions looking for something. Plus, one can only copy and paste back 2 pages (at least, that's all I seem to be able to do).

I don't know if there is a need to have its own section, but if Tom (or Jarkko) could split the existing thread into at least two sections, it would help.

Joe
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Postby lizzytysh » Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:18 pm

Right, Joe... you have to open another window for the site, to go back further... to read or to copy. Even then, a lot of scrolling is necessary. It's frustrating when you're in the midst of it. The more refinement with this organizing idea, the better.


~ Lizzy
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Postby Tchocolatl » Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:49 am

Tom Sakic wrote:Let's do it very simply - when we finish #11, the person who will introduce #12 can do it in new thread (and title it "Book of Mercy, Part II", or "Book of Mercy #12-20" or something like that).


Also, if the existing thread is too big, there's option of "splitting" in Moderator's keyboard, so I can divide it into "Book of Mercy #1-5" and "Book of Mercy #6-11". Just say so:-)
You are the driver, Tom.
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Postby tomsakic » Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:26 pm

It's not logical I know.

But for first five pieces we spent 9 pages.

For pieces #6 and 7 ten pages.

For next four 16 pages.

So if I splitted it up 5 by 5 it wouldn't be quite helpful (last five would be more than 15 pages). We can also cut third part after 9 and open new from 11th prayer. What means new thread for each two psalms. What's pretty close to the best idea that we have separate thread for each of the pieces. But it's too late now, nobody was thinking about this when we started!

Maybe it would be simplest that we move to new thread when the current one has grown to bih and the new piece is about to be introduced.

Also, please note that this is just technical splitting. Namely, I returned discussion to #4 after we were already on #6; also many prayers were commented simultaneously. The man problem is that repeated topics are now splited in few thread. Namely, I cut it when next psalm was introduced, while discussion about Kabbalah, Jack's writing etc. - which was in continuity - is now in 4 threads.

Sigh.

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