BEAUTIFUL LOSERS: is it really fiction?

Debate on Leonard Cohen's poetry (and novels), both published and unpublished. Song lyrics may also be discussed here.
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lizzytysh
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Postby lizzytysh » Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:54 am

Here we go, again, on several fronts.

I know for a fact that Leonard aka Leonard Cohen does not need me... I also know that I have needed his voice and his words, and will continue to do so. So, that covers this devotee :wink: . Leonard's needing his devotees? That's an interesting notion, in itself.

However, with regard to what you've been saying here, Ann... I have enough healthy, inbred [by years of learning about this lie, that lie, and a host of other lies] that there has been much going on, generally, in our societies and around the world, that is not common knowledge. It's fully plausible to me that if Leonard were to be privy to anything of that nature, that he would be clever and sane enough to cloak it in symbolism and a number of other distractions... and would, indeed, write a truly important book. I wish Leonard were free and inclined to speak and clarify this issue. That's not to say that I endorse all you've said, but you can bet I haven't discounted it, either.

I wish I knew.

~ Lizzy

P.S. You don't scare me in [as they say] any way, shape, or form :wink: . Speaking of things of this nature will always be threatening to the status quo, and you will be considered crazy. That's part of why they so often continue well hidden.
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who needs who?

Postby humanponysss2000 » Thu Feb 09, 2006 9:17 am

I'm really not into the sort of "debating" that Greg seems to practice. As for the argument that I must be very attached to Leonard to post these thoughts about him, that is something I heard a lot from his most abject devotees of 20-odd years ago. It mystified me then, and it still does. It just seems to me that this particular singer is a magnet for women who had big trouble with their mothers and have secret incestuous longings for their daddy.

Leonard was a fixture in my neighbourhood for many years. He has had a great influence on my generation, and maybe even the next two generations. So I think it is not outrageous to ask questions. I spent a decade defending him, and another decade noticing a lot of the people who cluster around him were extremely desperate for love and approval. I also noticed a lot of fear mixed in with the hero-worship. I think drugs and sex are part of that. The music business is not where I would choose to spend my life, but somebody's got to do it...

I think the early sixties music was on the right track, in terms of the values it promoted. I see LC as a man who succumbed to the conservative influences that we thought we were going to overthrow. I think he was a backtracker, someone who came along and threw cold water on what he saw as the false aspirations and hubris of the young. Thank you, we needed that! Eventually he came to stand for respect for authority, tradition, and orthodoxy and -- surprise! -- the Canadian media embraced him, so he has been giving them the same interview for 20 years.

He taught me the word "geopolitical," the meaning of which I did not know in 1980. Thank you, Leonard. I am not sure I am better off.

I think there's a point in everyone's life when they make a choice that ends up defining them for a long time afterwards. I think Leonard made that choice ca. 1980, along with a lot of others, and we are now reaping the results in all these wars we are about to go into.

Thank you for the article about MONARCH. I found it disturbing but honest. I didn't know the full story of the kidnappings etc. in Belgium. I agree with you and the journalist: we can't know if these things are true because everything is so manipulated. But we can't completely rule them out.

We all need to do our own investigating.

For some reason, I thought you might find this interesting:

http://www.starchild.co.za/what.html
Give me land, lots of land
Under starry skies above
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Postby Tchocolatl » Thu Feb 09, 2006 3:04 pm

"It mystified me then, and it still does"

Thank you for this honest answer.

You may have encounter in your life many "devotees" of Leonard Cohen but that does not mean all the fans are in this category. For me, I am amazed about the artist. The man, I know that I know nothing about him and don't want to know. In my mind he has a public life and a private life. I'm interested to his public life. I'll just add that he is sexy and charismatic, some people are, and that has nothing to do with troubled women/men or not around them. Anyway.

Thank you for the link also. I do not have time to read it right now, I'll do it.

Hello poeple Hello!!!! Do you know that a MOVIE was made about the MKUltra project?!!!!! Come on. Please.

A movie that was seen by a large audience. This with a lot of information about this from miscelleneous sources. So I think that by now if that was the main hidden subject of BL, Leonard Cohen would have talk about it.

I did think you'll find interesting the link I did bring here. If this subject is so hot, why do not do your own work of fiction inspired by it?

I have another interesting link for you in this regard :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Milligan

Particularly this one from the man himself :

http://www.astraeasweb.net/plural/milligan.html
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lizzytysh
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Postby lizzytysh » Thu Feb 09, 2006 3:42 pm

Hi Ann ~
It just seems to me that this particular singer is a magnet for women who had big trouble with their mothers and have secret incestuous longings for their daddy.
Which female singer is a magnet for men who had big trouble with their fathers and have secret incestuous longings for their mommy? I'm very curious, as you've developed some very interesting theories surrounding people who love Leonard's music, and I hasten to add that you've certainly known/met a whole lot more of his fans than I ever have, to be able to do this.

In the alternative, seemingly like you, I don't see a correlation between questioning and attachment, either. Questioning is a healthy process.

I spent a decade defending him, and another decade noticing a lot of the people who cluster around him were extremely desperate for love and approval. I also noticed a lot of fear mixed in with the hero-worship. I think drugs and sex are part of that.
You've clumped a number of things in together here that I'm curious about. I'm guessing that since he was a fixture in your neighbourhood for many years, that you're speaking of people you saw/knew in person. It would seem, but I can't be certain, that the years during which you observed this clustering were the years when drugs and sex were rampant. With your sensing a connection between them and [presumably] the "extremely desperate for love and approval," that there may have been a number of young people who turned to drugs and sex, in the first place, out of their extremely desperate need for love and approval... and Leonard was merely a very attractive being during that time and admixture; however, by no means the only one people were gravitating to. Put drugs into the mix and you've added a variable that skews the whole picture, anyway. I recall women, such as you've described, during that period and they tended to get 'used up' by men. Leonard was a romantic figure during a time that young people were seeking the alternative, beautiful 'way out' of this world. There were many other types of romantic figures to whom they also gravitated. What do you say of the men who could be said to love Leonard's music and writing and to be a follower of him?

However, to turn your observations from this unique time into a blanket theory rather erases those whose interest in Leonard is poetic/music-based/intellectual/writer-based/etc. Levels of interest that have nothing to do with the 'Sixties'... people writing their masters and doctoral theses on him, using his work for instruction in their classes, covering his songs as songwriters and musicians, being appreciators and lovers of his sublime mixture of voice, words, and music, ad infinitum. When I read your comments there, it just seems that your perspective on/perception of it may be skewed a bit for permanent application. You can rightfully claim that you know Leonard a whole lot better than I do :lol: , and who could argue with that? It's your assessments and conclusions surrounding him that are a bit problematical. Still, the experiments, et al, remain of great interest.

Since you, at least at one time, obviously had a connection with Leonard, did you ever broach him on any of this? As I'm recalling, you are the woman who some described as writing from a sour grapes/'stalking' perspective about Leonard, some time ago here, in what they considered an attempt to undermine something about him, or perhaps his relationships with women? Hmmm... I'll see if I can do the Search thing and come up with something more concrete than those hazy memories associated with your name. Do you work at, or did you write an article for the Globe and Mail? I'll probably come back and delete a good portion of this paragraph, after I get your name into its proper perspective :lol: . If you're able to clarify anything before I do, I'll delete my guessings :wink: .

~ Lizzy
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Postby ~greg » Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:05 pm

humanponyss2000 wrote:I'm really not into the sort of "debating" that Greg seems to practice.


1) But I do not annoy me.

Whereas you, on the other hand, wrote that:
"For the third time in my lengthening life as a child of the sixties,
I am reading Beautiful Losers. "

Which did annoy me. Because you ought to know that "life"
does not have any kind of "length" that can be measured in "feet".
It has "duration" instead. ("Like" threads.)

You really should meet "Geoffrey", who has miraculously returned.
(Fortunately, because I tend to become increasingly testy the longer
he's gone. He tends to take the testy out of me.
I figure, "what's" the point?)

Actually, for about a second there, I imagined you might even be he
(- hehe -) since no one else has even ever read BLs once,
according to, in effect, the two of you.

You, however, are a ewe, whereas he has a thingy,
a suit, and who, in their right mind, would choose
if they had the choice, to come-on ever so politely, as do you,
under pseudonym, whilst airing the dirtiest imaginable
yellow white and brown laundry, and words, - under his own real name?
That would be like putting the droppings before the horse.
Which reminds me, have you ever noticed how human hair colors
correspond to bodily excreta? Yellow -red -brown, we are attracted
to these particular colors, because it is only healthy living bodies that
make them, to signal normal functioning. Whereas dead bodies
only make stink. Hence perfume, which was invented by the 3rd Reich
as a cover-up, and continues to sell well.
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Postby Young dr. Freud » Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:09 pm

AD is the person who made several very scary and sordid accusations about Leonard in her "My Life with Leonard." No longer available on the net. The trouble with AD is that she has moments of lucidity and real insight that are then made negligible by her kooky flights of fancy. I found her MLWL fascinating in that regard. She would relate something that was obviously a first-hand experience with Leonard and then next she would be flying around the Universe with her soul mate Mick Jagger.

YdF

P.S. She's right about his interviews. He keeps giving the same one over and over. Maybe the questions are all the same. The answers sure are.
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Postby ~greg » Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:25 pm

Young dr. Freud wrote: AD is the person who made several very scary and sordid accusations about Leonard
in her "My Life with Leonard." No longer available on the net. The trouble with AD is that
she has moments of lucidity and real insight that are then made negligible by her kooky
flights of fancy. I found her MLWL fascinating in that regard. She would relate something
that was obviously a first-hand experience with Leonard and then next she would be
flying around the Universe with her soul mate Mick Jagger.
YdF
P.S. She's right about his interviews. He keeps giving the same one over and over.
Maybe the questions are all the same. The answers sure are.
(YdF, i hope you wrote that with some degree of self-consciousness.
because otherwise, this is just too easy.
-- who here "keeps giving the same one over and over"?

"The trouble with" YdF "is that" he "has moments of lucidity and real insight
that are then made negligible by" his "kooky flights of fancy."
...etc. )



Ann Diamond shocked me, too, with her "My Life with Leonard",
several years ago, because there was no statement to be found
anywhere near it as to what in it was in fact fiction, and what in it
was in fact fact. Exactly as YdF said - she obviously had some
first-hand experiences to do with LC. And she wrote many sharp
and unusual insights that rang very true to me, whether or not true.
It seemed to be just an early draft of something but I found it all
very interesting. Ann Diamond is a creative writer. Something like
Judith Fitzgerald. That is, she writes in the "post-modern' style.
And while I don't think I much care for that style, I certainly recognize talent
when I see it. And they have it.

Now, however, since "humanponysss2000" would seem to be in fact Ann Diamond,
I here and now DEMAND of her that she confesses,
--- at the very least,
--- as to whether she knows of ANY evidence
--- WHATSOEVER,
--- be it 3rd, 2nd, 1st, or 0th (pure fiction) hand,
that Leonard Cohen ever molested a child!

(In this connection, "Beautiful Losers" is evidence of nothing whatsoever
other than that Leonard Cohen is a great writer.)

And unless she tells me not to
(and I can't see any reason why she would,
provided she blesses us here and now with some little statement
to the effect that she did, or did not, in fact, invent those more
slanderous parts of it) ...

...then I will soon post a link to my copy of Ann Diamond's "My Life with Leonard",
- for all to judge.

Postmodernism blurs the distinction between fact and fiction.
(Or rather,- if I understand it at all, -calls the bluff of "fact".)
Nevertheless "fact" is "religion", and people do get very upset
when it is disrespected.

James Frey's "A Million Little Pieces" was called "fact",
and "turned out to be" "fiction".

Elie Wiesel's "Night" was called "fiction",
and turned out to be "fact".

Whatever Oprah Winfrey says,
is fine with me.


(see:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/AnnDiamond/


[corrected sp; buff -> bluff)
Last edited by ~greg on Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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lizzytysh
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Postby lizzytysh » Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:18 pm

I appreciate that "DEMAND," as well, Greg. "My Life with Leonard" is now coming back into focus for me.

As for your earlier, computer-generated piece, it seemed to me when I originally read it that you might be 'channeling' Geoffrey, but didn't comment that way, as I'd already done it earlier with something you wrote. I never suspected it to be computer generated, but did think you were, perhaps, just engaging in a writing exercise to demonstrate that anything can be claimed, argued, and 'supported.' I knew you couldn't believe those things, or you wouldn't be here as you are. It would be like someone hanging out as a regular on a Mengele site.

~ Lizzy
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~greg
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Postby ~greg » Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:44 pm

that you might be 'channeling' Geoffrey,

That's ok lizzy. I too very often confuse myself with "Geoffrey".
But that's only when I wear a tux.

On the ng I could always tell when I wasn't Geoffrey
by tracing the e-mail addresses.
It's not so easy here.

And I really thought for awhile that humanponysss2000
might be Geoffrey. Due to the similarity of hobby-horses.
But YdF set that right.
(He can be useful that way. Sometimes.)


Generally we should keep in mind that there are a whole
lot of people in the world. Even more than you and I can
count up to in one night.

And that it takes only a very small number of people,
picked at random, before you start getting two or more of them
having at least a few attributes in common.

But any number of attributes in common is never good evidence
that they're the same person. To think that it always means that,
is a shade of paranoia.


The pigeon-hole principle -
if you have 366 pigeons, and only 365 holes,
then at least 2 pigeons will have to share the same hole.
With 100% probability.

More interesting,
if you have N people in a room,
and distribute them at random into 365 birthdays,
then the probability that at least 2 people have the same birthday,
is 1 - the probability that all of them have different birthdays.

So it's == 1 - (365/365 )*(364/365)*(363/365)...*...( (365-N)/365).

You could use some variant of Stirling's approximation for the factorial
to calculate that. But the trivial script below works just fine.


The N usually mentioned is = 23, since that's the cross-over point.

When there 23 or more people in a room,
then it is with greater than 50% probability
that at least 2 of them have the same birthday.

(These two invariably find each other across the room.
And, sooner or later, kill each other.)


At around N=50 the probability approaches 100%.
And by 150, for all practical purposes it is 100%.
------------------------------
perl script:
sub Prob { my $n=shift; my $p=1;for(my $i = 0; $i < $n; $i++){$p *= (365-$i)/365 }return 1-$p }
for(my $N=1;$N<=365;$N++){ my $p=Prob($N);print "$N: $p\n" }

prints:

1: 0
2: 0.00273972602739725
3: 0.00820416588478134
4: 0.0163559124665502
5: 0.0271355736997935
6: 0.0404624836491114
7: 0.0562357030959754
8: 0.074335292351669
9: 0.0946238338891667
10: 0.116948177711078
11: 0.141141378321733
12: 0.167024788838064
13: 0.194410275232429
14: 0.223102512004973
15: 0.252901319763686
16: 0.28360400525285
17: 0.315007665296561
18: 0.34691141787179
19: 0.379118526031537
20: 0.41143838358058
21: 0.443688335165206
22: 0.47569530766255
23: 0.507297234323986
24: 0.538344257914529
25: 0.568699703969464
26: 0.598240820135939
27: 0.626859282263242
28: 0.654461472342399
29: 0.680968537477777
30: 0.706316242719269
31: 0.730454633728644
32: 0.753347527850321
33: 0.774971854175772
34: 0.795316864620154
35: 0.814383238874715
36: 0.83218210637988
37: 0.848734008216385
38: 0.864067821082121
39: 0.878219664366722
40: 0.891231809817949
41: 0.903151611481735
42: 0.914030471561869
43: 0.92392285565612
44: 0.932885368551426
45: 0.940975899465775
46: 0.948252843367255
47: 0.954774402833299
48: 0.960597972879423
49: 0.965779609322676
50: 0.970373579577988
51: 0.974431993334428
52: 0.978004509334275
53: 0.981138113483913
54: 0.983876962758852
55: 0.986262288816446
56: 0.988332354885201
57: 0.99012245934117
58: 0.991664979389261
59: 0.992989448417817
60: 0.994122660865348
61: 0.995088798805291
62: 0.995909574895365
63: 0.996604386830947
64: 0.997190478966976
65: 0.997683107312492
66: 0.998095704640405
67: 0.9984400429794
68: 0.998726391254414
69: 0.998963666308386
70: 0.999159575965157
71: 0.999320753177319
72: 0.999452880641457
73: 0.999560805556019
74: 0.999648644444815
75: 0.999719878173811
76: 0.999777437453165
77: 0.999823779243739
78: 0.999860954581361
79: 0.999890668396851
80: 0.999914331949313
81: 0.999933108508368
82: 0.99994795292158
83: 0.999959645689882
84: 0.999968822149443
85: 0.99997599732601
86: 0.999981586989816
87: 0.999985925397695
88: 0.999989280165915
89: 0.999991864673859
90: 0.999993848356124
91: 0.999995365199819
92: 0.999996520725344
93: 0.999997397693202
94: 0.999998060746715
95: 0.999998560170849
96: 0.999998934920902
97: 0.999999215051295
98: 0.999999423654101
99: 0.999999578399028
100: 0.999999692751072
101: 0.999999776928861
102: 0.999999838655395
103: 0.999999883743476
104: 0.999999916550112
105: 0.999999940327614
106: 0.999999957493643
107: 0.999999969837955
108: 0.999999978679979
109: 0.999999984988369
110: 0.999999989471294
111: 0.999999992644329
112: 0.999999994881259
113: 0.999999996451941
114: 0.999999997550381
115: 0.999999998315468
116: 0.999999998846211
117: 0.999999999212895
118: 0.9999999994652
119: 0.999999999638094
120: 0.999999999756085
121: 0.999999999836276
122: 0.999999999890552
123: 0.999999999927135
124: 0.999999999951689
125: 0.999999999968102
126: 0.999999999979026
127: 0.999999999986266
128: 0.999999999991045
129: 0.999999999994185
130: 0.99999999999624
131: 0.999999999997579
132: 0.999999999998448
133: 0.999999999999009
134: 0.99999999999937
135: 0.999999999999602
136: 0.999999999999749
137: 0.999999999999842
138: 0.999999999999902
139: 0.999999999999939
140: 0.999999999999962
141: 0.999999999999977
142: 0.999999999999986
143: 0.999999999999991
144: 0.999999999999995
145: 0.999999999999997
146: 0.999999999999998
147: 0.999999999999999
148: 0.999999999999999
149: 1
150: 1
...
364: 1
365: 1
Tchocolatl
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Postby Tchocolatl » Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:54 pm

humanponeysss2000, you are a good entertainer. I read your link, almost enterely. I find it a beautiful fairy tale (or metaphor?) about a possible future for the evolution of human kind.

There is so many other scenarii that are more obscur.
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Postby lizzytysh » Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:00 pm

On the ng I could always tell when I wasn't Geoffrey
by tracing the e-mail addresses.
It's not so easy here.



The pigeon-hole principle -
if you have 366 pigeons, and only 365 holes,
then at least 2 pigeons will have to share the same hole.
With 100% probability.



When there 23 or more people in a room,
then it is with greater than 50% probability
that at least 2 of them have the same birthday.

(These two invariably find each other across the room.
And, sooner or later, kill each other.)



365: 1
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:



:D So glad I brought it up :D .


~ Lizzy :)
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~greg
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Postby ~greg » Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:26 pm

Ann Diamond, I apologize,
for messing up this thread.

You are an utterly fascinating person.
Every line you write now takes on a very different hue
since YdF made the connection.
( http://people.lulu.com/users/index.php?fHomepage=180923 )


In particular:
I am not so definite as you are about the difference between fiction and fact.
It seems to me most of life is a carefully-maintained fiction,
some of it held together with facts, the ones we choose to believe in.
There is a big difference in that not having been written by an air-head teeny-bopper
as I first thought (- and therefore treated without any thought at all)
- but rather by the talented writer who had written that astounding
"My Life With Leonard" that I was so taken by 4 or 5 years ago.

And now "humanponyss2000" (aka "Ann Diamond", aka "Anne McLean"),
I wish you well in this MKULTRA project of yours, where ever it takes you.
And I do hope you do get lots of substantial stuff from this forum to use in it.

But what I really want to know is:
"My Life With Leonard"

Where was that coming from?
What became of it?


As fiction, it was fascinating psychologically. As a travelogue, it was inspired.
As fact -it rivaled 9/11 in shock value.

And I speak for everyone here:
Whatever you could say about MLWL, here, now,
will be extremely appreciated!

~Greg.
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Hello?

Postby humanponysss2000 » Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:38 am

Hi people

Can you please all stop yelling for a minute? I have just read this thread backwards and am a bit confused about what exactly has been triggered here.

In the first place, I am a stranger to this forum, don't know any of you, don't really know why I first set hoof in here, except I thought it would be interesting to draw this parallel I recently noticed between Beautiful Losers and the MKULTRA program which had been at work in Montreal for about 7 years when Leonard sat down to write this novel. It just seems a bit too coincidental, given that he was around the places and knew the people, and takes up so many of the details and themes...

I had barely got this off my chest when the arrows and mud started flying

Greg, I took down My Life With Leonard Cohen about two years ago for a reason, and it's I believe a violation of copyright for you to have it up somewhere, and be directing people to it, without my permission. In fact, I think if you do that, you may also hear from Leonard. :lol:

I wrote it over two months in 2002 while I was trying to sort out a very confusing, volatile situation, as I'm sure was fairly evident to anyone who actually read it. Thank you for your kind comments, Greg, but I read parts of it recently and was embarrassed. By my hit counter results, only a handful of readers ever made it to the end of my long, meandering tale, and I see you were one of them.

Frankly, this board is a very manic place, people here are subject to major mood swings, which I think is mainly due to the nature of the internet. I can't really deal with all the stuff on this thread.

Let's just say, knowing what I know now, I would not have written MLWL, at least not in the way I wrote it then. I thought I had something to say at the time, about women and men, and the sixties, and how they turned into the eighties... or about the fragility of trust...

Things happen in a lifetime that make no sense, and you look for explanations, and I tried to find some by writing, but I didn't know all the background, I only had my limited knowlege, my 5 senses, a chain of memories, and a personal point of view.

But now I'm beginning to think a lot of things in our lifetime have been much more engineered than I could have imagined 5 years ago, and that it will really take a GROUP EFFORT to sort it all out.

Nobody -- no one person -- can do this alone. I don't believe in heroes. I don't even believe in Christ -- I think we all have to get together and develop the consciousness of Christ to solve the mess we are now in.

So that's my post for tonight. May be incoherent, but it's the best I can do for now!
Give me land, lots of land
Under starry skies above
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Some serious stuff

Postby humanponysss2000 » Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:22 am

I suppose I should apologize to people here. My approach to all this is, as someone said, a bit too personal.

Someone asked a pretty direct question about Leonard and children.

Let's just say, no one knows what goes on in other people's lives, or has the right to make public accusations.

On the other hand, if you and I knew what goes on in the music business, the part of it that is controlled by forces that have nothing to do with art, and everything to do with organized crime, drugs, and blackmail... but this is too large a topic for a personal message.

We all live and learn. There is a general level of trauma in this society that everyone takes part in, one way or another, and understanding where one person's pain begins and another's ends is, well, quite a daunting task.

I see it differently now than I did back in 2001, but so much has happened, don't you all agree, to dissolve the world we live in? And I can't help thinking that's a good thing, that certain structures are rapidly crumbling.

I hope we all find the energy within ourselves to replace what has been destroyed in the outside world. So many illusions are being shattered, including the illusion that we are separate.

Again, this is not making sense. I'm a bit tired. Good night all.
Give me land, lots of land
Under starry skies above
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lizzytysh
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Postby lizzytysh » Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:29 pm

Hi Ann ~

It made sense to me. Thank you for your graceful explanations. None of us lead perfect lives, nor make perfect, or even always the best, decisions throughout them. As you know, we pretty much do the best we are able at the time, and generally we do what we do in good will. Not always, but generally.

I particularly appreciate these clarifications and acknowledgements:
. . . my long, meandering tale . . .

. . . I thought I had something to say at the time, about women and men, and the sixties, and how they turned into the eighties... or about the fragility of trust...

Things happen in a lifetime that make no sense, and you look for explanations, and I tried to find some by writing, but I didn't know all the background, I only had my limited knowlege, my 5 senses, a chain of memories, and a personal point of view.
Yes ~ the world continues to change drastically, at least in respect to how it's been in my own lifetime :cry: .

Thanks for your last two postings, Ann.

~ Elizabeth
Last edited by lizzytysh on Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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