diction

General discussion about Leonard Cohen's songs and albums
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Diane
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Postby Diane » Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:42 am

Hi Geoffrey,
Thank you for being so friendly, all of you.


Just in case you thought I was being unfriendly: I was simply offering a different perspective in a tongue-in-cheek kind of way. As you do this, I did not think you would interpret me as being unfriendly.

Hi Fljots,

I am also an introvert who finds nothing appealing about boisterous crowds, and I also like to spend a lot of time on my own. But that doesn't at all contradict the idea of wanting to meet LC people! Anyway, no probs, we have already had this conversation before and I am cool about you not coming to the meets. Sort of :wink: .

Hi Tony,

Is there something you'd like to talk about instead?

Diane
Tony
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Postby Tony » Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:24 pm

Alligatorors!
Steven
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Re: diction

Postby Steven » Sun Jul 09, 2006 4:36 am

For stellar diction, they may want to check out "Villanelle For Our
Time" on "Dear Heather."
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Geoffrey
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Postby Geoffrey » Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:04 am

Diane wrote:
>Just in case you thought I was being unfriendly: I was simply offering a different perspective in a tongue-in-cheek kind of way. As you do this, I did not think you would interpret me as being unfriendly.

Hello Diane -
Your offer was welcome, as are you. The last time I interpreted anything was when I saw plastic chairs tilted against a patio table late at night and assumed that the householder was expecting rain. Do not worry about what one thinks of you, but remain your natural self. Far better to be hated for being yourself than loved for being someone you are not. I prefer tomorrow's weather to be a surprise.

Geoffrey
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Diane
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Postby Diane » Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:59 am

Well, that's OK then, G. I'd had an inkling I might have unwittingly offended you once before when you wrote a poem I did not realise was a poem, so I decided to find out this time. I'm glad my concern was unwarranted.

Diane
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mdidier
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Postby mdidier » Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:17 am

What an interesting thread, lucidly and charmingly debated mostly by the citizens of original English.

May I opine? Mispronunciation, like misappropriation of words is appreciated more only if the user actually knows the correct version (in my humble opinion); most of the time we can tell if the user knows. Asinine expressions or phrases like, well you know, "you know" are obnoxious when used frequently as a "crutch".

Who cringes when we hear people repeat unnecessarily the word "addition"?: in “addition we add” an extra xxx; or, "the reason why"... do we say "the method how"?, etc .... "Different pronunciations vary" ....(are there differences that are the same?); one too many nuance for me!

Would it be funny if a comedian tells jokes about Americans to non-Americans, using the Southern "y'all"?.... when perhaps many in the audience do not know that y'all comes from "you all".

I would like to think that those of us who are multi-lingual and have some interest in the cultures that define these languages, take much more care to learn the correct pronunciation and meaning of words and their nuances. Example, the French word "la canicule" (little female dog, bitch)... is generally translated as "dog days of summer" but is that as precise as it should be? Or, “El Nino” (the child) means nothing unless you already know the meteorological reference.

Does that mean we should strive to become sequipedalians? My answer is yes... for it reflects an interest in understanding and explaining more fully meanings of words...more precision.

To dismiss mis-pronunciations or mis-understandings as being communication also, is proletarian and disdains the earnest search for great truth and meaning, and endorses superficiality.

After all, who can devise the best jokes about rocket science? someone who knows the main points of the science... of course it requires that audience also understand the references...

Years ago there was a certain " Professor Kory" making the rounds of US universities leaving students of philosophy rolling in the aisles with his specialized humour. This required a decent fundamental appreciation for the many philosophical schools throughout history on his part (he probably flunked philosophy classes, bur learned enough to fashion philo jokes)

US TV personality Steve Allen, during the 1970s produced a mini-series entitled "Meeting of Minds" where he would act as the interviewer of important figures from history such as: Eliz. Barrett Browning, Machiavelli, Aristotle, Dr Sun Yat-Sen; another brought together General Grant (US Civil War), Marie Antoinette, Thomas More, Marx... and each had to react to the other's statements in a meaningful way. The effort to put this together required a vast array of knowledge, in depth... probably from an array of scholars who helped fashion the dialogue... This program raised my appreciation for Steve Allen exponentially....
Life is the final riddle, we all give up on it eventually...
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Fljotsdale
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Postby Fljotsdale » Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:11 pm

mdidier wrote:What an interesting thread, lucidly and charmingly debated mostly by the citizens of original English.

May I opine? Mispronunciation, like misappropriation of words is appreciated more only if the user actually knows the correct version (in my humble opinion); most of the time we can tell if the user knows. Asinine expressions or phrases like, well you know, "you know" are obnoxious when used frequently as a "crutch".

Who cringes when we hear people repeat unnecessarily the word "addition"?: in “addition we add” an extra xxx; or, "the reason why"... do we say "the method how"?, etc .... "Different pronunciations vary" ....(are there differences that are the same?); one too many nuance for me!

Would it be funny if a comedian tells jokes about Americans to non-Americans, using the Southern "y'all"?.... when perhaps many in the audience do not know that y'all comes from "you all".
Of course you can opine. :lol:

I disagree with your implication that most people don't know the meaning of their mispronunciations, however. Though it is probably true of most misappropriations of words - though not all. Some are deliberately misappropriated for the sheer hell of it. Some are even deliberately mispronounced for the silliness factor, in order to raise a laugh, or as simple in-jokes in families or between friends/peer groups.

And most people in the West are reasonably familiar with Americanisms for words like y'all to be totally understood.

And, I must add, mispronunciation in whose opinion? Usually the speakers of 'received' English - and 'received' English is not real English. It is heavily influenced by Latin grammar, which is NOT English grammar. Latin grammar does not allow prepositions at the end of sentences; in English grammar it is natural to place prepositions there. :P (Sorry, little hobby-horse of mine.)
:)
Only just found this video of LC:
http://ca.youtube.com/user/leonardcohen?ob=4" target="_blank

This one does make me cry.
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mdidier
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Postby mdidier » Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:35 pm

hmmm....... reading my statement carelessly?.... I used the word "appreciated" which is NOT the same as "understood"... so we have no disagreement...

my point is that one can appreciate something more only IF one knows that something more than superficially...
Life is the final riddle, we all give up on it eventually...
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Fljotsdale
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Postby Fljotsdale » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:30 pm

mdidier wrote: hmmm....... reading my statement carelessly?.... I used the word "appreciated" which is NOT the same as "understood"... so we have no disagreement...
Meh... :P Mr Pedant. :lol:
mdidier wrote:my point is that one can appreciate something more only IF one knows that something more than superficially...
Hm. I understood what you were saying. However, your... essay... comes over as unbelievably pompous, you know. ( :wink: ) Your language balloon is in dire need of pricking, imo. :wink: :lol: Leave language alone; it will find it's own ways. Always has. In the end, nature will out, and people will speak as they choose, not as prescribed.
Only just found this video of LC:
http://ca.youtube.com/user/leonardcohen?ob=4" target="_blank

This one does make me cry.
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linda_lakeside
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Postby linda_lakeside » Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:55 am

Marcel used to be a Chippendale Dancer, you know. It was brief, but memorable.

Linda.
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mdidier
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Postby mdidier » Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:09 pm

fljot.... your perceptiveness and generosity of spirit are overwhelming... in tune with this community?

is this not a "discussion" forum? a thread about the use and meaning of words? or is it about personality or condescension toward 'colonials'?
Life is the final riddle, we all give up on it eventually...
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Fljotsdale
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Postby Fljotsdale » Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:29 am

mdidier wrote: fljot.... your perceptiveness and generosity of spirit are overwhelming... in tune with this community?
ROFL!!! Nice hint of sarcasm there! I like it! I can tell you feel insulted. I'm perceptive like that, lol! And very generous in insults, too. I'm happy you noticed. :P But it was not in any carping spirit, only in a mild, reproachful sort of way; I'm not keen on being lectured, you see.
mdidier wrote:is this not a "discussion" forum? a thread about the use and meaning of words? or is it about personality or condescension toward 'colonials'?
Actually, I think this thread began about Cohen's diction, not about the meaning of words, though it has evolved, as all threads do. I've no objection to a discusion of word meanings - but do you think you could do it in a less teacherish style? Hm? :)
Only just found this video of LC:
http://ca.youtube.com/user/leonardcohen?ob=4" target="_blank

This one does make me cry.
JoeY128
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Re: diction

Postby JoeY128 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:00 pm

https://youtu.be/45KBubamRaw

13 times :shock:
We still love him though, don't we? ;-)

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