Thanks for the dance / baby?

Tchocolatl
Posts: 3781
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm

Postby Tchocolatl » Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:38 pm

You know, sincerely I just don't give a damn about what people here are doing with my information. One find it interesting matter : good. Very good. I'm happy One wants to descredit it with fallacious argumentation that has nothing to do with the century we are talking about, go ahead. One wants to stick to comfortable belief : stick to it.

It changes nothing in my life nor in the life of all those long ago dead people, nor in the life of anybody, as far as I know.

I was only a casual comment about how parenthood is now compared to what is was "once upon a time".
evelyn
Posts: 252
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2002 6:15 am
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

thanks for the dance

Postby evelyn » Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:57 pm

Fascinating topic, Simon!

Speaking of attachment, some time ago I worked at a Montessori
school for 3 to 5 year olds.
In the mornings, while being dropped-off, some of the younger kids
would stage a huge fuss with dramatics and tears. As soon as they entered the classroom it would stop, as if switched off, and the child would
become a calm, independant miniature adult until it was time to go home.
After a while I realized that the dramatics were for the parents' benefit
so the parent wouldn't feel that their child wouldn't miss them.

Is that nature or culture?
evelyn
Simon
Posts: 391
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 10:09 pm
Location: Montréal

Postby Simon » Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:31 pm

Hi Evelyn,

If you're intersted by the subject, Bowlby has documented many case studies of kids in similar situations and it was from there that he built his theory.

His own interest for the subject came from what he later called hospitalism, anguish crises that children suffer when cut from their parents during hospitalisation.
Cohen is the koan
Why else would I still be stuck here
User avatar
lizzytysh
Posts: 25340
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Florida, U.S.A.

Postby lizzytysh » Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:50 pm

There's also the inherent value of touch between humans... exemplified by the case where the nurse defied hospital policy and put the 'failure to thrive' twin in with its sibling. The strong twin instinctively reached out to touch and the blood pressure and heart rate of the weak one normalized. The 'failure to thrive' twin then began to thrive and survived.

***********************

Yesterday[?] or the day before[?] on NPR there was a segment on warm-blooded [is that redundant?] mammals, wherein they were talking about how they're learned that mice have empathy for one another and so do chimps/etc. The latter was demonstrated when a chimp was stranded somewhere high up and the rescuers put a net beneath it... and somehow forced the chimp to fall into it. There was another chimp watching the whole process [maybe it was at a zoo? I'm a little sketchy on those details, as I didn't hear it from the beginning] and when the chimp began its fall, the one on the ground let out a yelp and grabbed the hand of the chimp standing next to it. The conclusion was that, as a caretaking creature wholly responsible for the survival of a totally helpless, vulnerable, and dependent one of 'its' young, it clearly understood and empathized with the 'plight' and danger the high-up chimp was in. [I wonder if it also showed pleasure and relief when the other chimp bounced in the net and came out of it all just fine.] I didn't hear the example with the mice. These were very interesting to me, however.

****************************

My point is that there are some inherent, built-in mechanisms of caring, 'emotion', and responsiveness that work toward survival of the species. It doesn't always work out that way. Some mothers don't bond with their young [premature babies can sometimes suffer as a result of it... though there are safeguard s to try to prevent this from happening]. Post-partum depression is another hazard. In the animal world, some ignore/even kill[? ~ not totally sure on that, but it seems that sometimes the mother can get as aggressive as the father, who will sometimes just kill them all] the runt of the litter. This latter info is subject to correction.


~ Lizzy
Simon
Posts: 391
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 10:09 pm
Location: Montréal

Postby Simon » Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:56 pm

Evelyn,

Funny to say, but you'll get a glimpse of Leonard's idea on the subject of child attachement from the anecdote on this page that Jarkko just added:

http://www.leonardcohenfiles.com/straub2006.html
Cohen is the koan
Why else would I still be stuck here
lazariuk
Posts: 1859
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:38 am
Location: Montreal

Re: Thanks for the dance / baby?

Postby lazariuk » Sat Jan 13, 2007 7:56 am

[Simon] wrote:Thanks for the dance
and the baby I carried
it was almost a daughter or a son
and there's nothing to do
but to wonder if you
are as hopeless as me
and as decent


Birth could be said to be an even greater taboo than death. Leonard Cohen may be a good illustration of that since pregnency and birth rarely surface in his work, whereas death, loss, grief are often present.

That is why I was a bit surprised by the above, and espacially by the almost.


Anyboby knows if it refers to a real event?
I can't find any line on this CD that can't be sung by either a man or a woman. That makes me think that the man can be singing thanks for the baby I carried meaning he carried it after birth.
Why he uses the words almost a boy or a girl is pointing to a time when they were closer in the dance than they are now and at that point of conception they were probably together on the idea that it doesn't matter if it is a boy or a girl.
They probably decided that they didn't want to know before the delivery but what probably happened as so often happens is that they saw a tell tale sign during an ultrasound. Hense almost a boy or a girl. If this is so it gives the song a sweet rememberance of closeness
Steven
Posts: 2140
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 12:32 am

Re: Thanks for the dance / baby?

Postby Steven » Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:43 pm

Hi,

Never did I wonder if this song was biographical prior to seeing this
thread. I am moved, by the song, among other reasons, because
of the connotations that miscarriage has for many longing for children (IVF patients and others), and via the conveyance of miscarriage as a metaphor for dashed or unrealized dreams and hopes.
lazariuk
Posts: 1859
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:38 am
Location: Montreal

Re: Thanks for the dance / baby?

Postby lazariuk » Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:32 pm

Steven wrote:Hi,

Never did I wonder if this song was biographical prior to seeing this
thread. I am moved, by the song, among other reasons, because
of the connotations that miscarriage has for many longing for children (IVF patients and others), and via the conveyance of miscarriage as a metaphor for dashed or unrealized dreams and hopes.
Thats funny, never did I wonder if the song wasn't biographical.
I don't feel that Leonard would use a miscarriage as a metaphor for dashed or unrealized dreams and hopes. There is also something else about the CD that is very striking. The line "Nothing has failed"
Steven
Posts: 2140
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 12:32 am

Re: Thanks for the dance / baby?

Postby Steven » Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:42 am

"Thats funny, never did I wonder if the song wasn't biographical.
I don't feel that Leonard would use a miscarriage as a metaphor for dashed or unrealized dreams and hopes. There is also something else about the CD that is very striking. The line "Nothing has failed"[/quote]"

Lazariuk (Jack),

Never did I not wonder if "Crazy To Love You," was biographical. But,
this song, "Thanks For The Dance," gave me no reason to think it was
so, at least not between Anjani and Leonard. -- In "Thanks For
The Dance," the female appears at the point of resignation consistent
with the past tense indicated with "was fun." The differences (of
age), the "mirrors don't lie" words of "Crazy," sure sounds as if
it could be biographical for maybe both Anjani and Leonard. But,
I'd leave it to either/both of them to answer that if he/she/they
would like to do so. I'm not comfortable parsing through p.r., etc.
to say more, but the impression given of a more positive, happy Leonard
would be consistent with the tone and circumstances of "Crazy."
The line on the CD, "Nothing has failed," I took to be an expression
of a bit of romantic revisionism. -- Why "striking?"
lazariuk
Posts: 1859
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:38 am
Location: Montreal

Re: Thanks for the dance / baby?

Postby lazariuk » Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:28 am

Steven wrote: "Nothing has failed," I took to be an expression
of a bit of romantic revisionism. -- Why "striking?"
Just having Nothing and Failed together there. It is strikingly beautiful.

I don't think that any of the songs were written about his relation with Anjani. They sure do what they do well together.

Return to “Blue Alert”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests