Symbolism of 'Different Sides'

Leonard Cohen's previous album (January 2012)
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daka
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Re: Symbolism of 'Different Sides'

Postby daka » Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:24 pm

I hope I can shed some light on these lyrics.

I love this song too. I will provide my interpretations here, some of which which may not be understood very well by those who do not have an understanding of Buddhist psychology/philosophy. Leonard has studied Buddhism for well over 30 years, has done many years of meditation retreat, and has sat at the feet of a world-renowned master (Roshi) so I think we can conclude that his lyrics (especially post Mount Baldy) are best understood if we take into account his Buddhist studies.

We find ourselves on different sides
Of a line nobody drew
Though it only be one in the higher eye
Down here where we live it is two

This verse, I think generally refers to the well-known place where relationships arrive, usually many many times. Two different people actually see different things, see things a different way. The "line" is a metaphor for this division of views. Nobody actually drew the line. It does not exist and in a relationship you cannot point at it but you both know it is there. "In the higher eye" refers to the ultimate truth of the situation, or wisdom that knows there is no line, it is being subjectively manifested and experienced by two minds.

Both of us say there are laws to obey
Yeah but frankly I don't like your tone
You want to change the way I make love
But I want to leave it alone

This is the same theme; two people have two sets of rules, two views of right and wrong. Most of us can remember relationship dramas where each of us is saying "No, you're wrong, it's this way, I'm right"

Down in the valley the famine goes on
Famine up on the hill
I say you shouldn't, you couldn't, you can't
You say that you must and you will

More of the same theme.... "I say A, you say B and nobody is satisfied (stops being hungry) regardless of the material circumstances"

You want to live where the suffering is
I want to get out of town
C'mon baby, give me a kiss
Stop writing everything down

This is one of my favorite verses of Leonard's, it is SO funny! One person in the relationship is sort of addicted to the suffering drama, the other wants to let it go, he just wants to enjoy and end the drama, but the other is continuing to do the "journaling"

One verse that especially requires a Buddhist view to be understood is this one:

The pull of the moon, the thrust of the sun
Thus, the ocean is crossed
The waters are blessed while a shadowy guest
kindles a light for the lost

This push and pull of suffering, is like the tides, coming and going, relentlessly. Buddhist view is that this "ocean of suffering" can be crossed but we need a shadowy guest to guide us "lost" people to the other shore. I think Leonard's shadowy guest is his teacher, Roshi.

If anyone wants to explore Leonard's Buddhist influence on his lyrics I suggest the following Youtube link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSv5ELuujjs

I hope my interpretation helps someone

Sean
If you become the ocean you will not become seasick....Jikan (aka Leonard Cohen)

It's comin' from the feel that this ain't exactly real, or it's real, but it ain't exactly there! . Jikan
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Re: Symbolism of 'Different Sides'

Postby Jean Fournell » Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:42 pm

Well done, daka, and many thanks for sharing your ideas!

For my part, I've not yet been able to understand this song otherwise than concerning the typical teacher-disciple-relationship. Only in such a context can I put the pieces together, so that they seem to fit...

● "a line that nobody drew" — the gateless gate (Mumonkan), the barrier that cannot be crossed by duality, although it is a mere illusion as soon as all is one. The dissolving of a Rinzai koan.

"Down here where we live it is two"
A few people might manage to stand on both sides of that line; all the others do it precisely as well, but without realizing that they do it, and that in reality there is no problem at all (a rather Soto starting-point).

The teacher stands astride this line, that's his role; and the disciple, on one side only, sees him as a stern, occasionally even hostile figure on the opposite side, outside real life, interfering; and sometimes one doesn't like the other one's tone.

(Past a certain age, for quite a number of people, love, if it weren't able to live without sex, would often have to go hungry. But let's leave that matter alone.)

● "I to my side call the meek and the mild
You to your side call the Word
By virtue of suffering I claim to have won
You claim to have never been heard"

Experience of dire reality versus Teachings, or necessity versus rules, or practise versus theory.
The troubles of figuring with zero and the infinite, right here and now, and with no second chance.

And then there is this terribly truthful word: Yes, I do perceive, with all my senses, your suffering and your confusion and your despair, and I would dearly like to give you something to help you. But here in Zen, I'm deeply sorry, we simply have nothing at all.
(For the meaning of "nothing", please look at the video linked in daka's post above.)

● "The pull of the moon the thrust of the sun
And thus the ocean is crossed
The waters are blessed while a shadowy guest
Kindles a light for the lost"

Eihei Dôgen wrote a poem called "Zazen", which says something like this:

Steady moonlight,
calm and clear,
pervading the floods of the mind:
the waves, even as they are breaking,
turn into light.

The moon, enlightenment, by suction, and the sun, worldly affairs, driving by material need, are cooperating, helping to cross the ocean of suffering — turned into light.

There is no actual opposition between contraries. They rather find themselves at (more or less) right angles, like the moonshine and the state of agitation, if such a shadowy furtive concept can be of any help for those who are a bit lost in these conjectures.

● "Down in the valley the famine goes on
The famine up on the hill..."

Traditionally, the valley stands for worldly affairs, the hill (or mountain) for monastic retreat.
As for the famine:

"...running for the money and the flesh.
And this was called love..." (Chelsea Hotel #2)

How one should/could/must go about it? Life according to such and such a recipe? Well...

● "You want to live where the suffering is": the idea of the bodhisattva, or of the teacher.
("Our need drove him" (quoted by memory, I'm too lazy right now to go and look it up), says Chief Bromden about McMurphy in "One flew over the cuckoo's nest".)

"I want to get out of town": the idea of the arhat (at best), or (more commonly) of the despairing disciple.
(Teachers are not supposed to get tired or fed up.)

"C'mon baby give me a kiss
Stop writing everything down"

There are some who don't embrace zen, but practise zazen in order to set their imagination going. Productivity then requires a notepad, so they can scribble down their bright ("old"?) ideas before they forget them. This kind of behaviour is not really appreciated in a zen monastery.

● Both sides say there are laws to obey.
And that's all right, as long as they keep in mind that they are at (more or less) right angles...

(There is no point in trying to figure out which one of them says what in this song. Any distinction between a real teacher and a real disciple would just be one more illusion.)

___()___ J.

P.S.: I want to thank you, Leonard Cohen, for teaching us so well.
___________________________________________________
Therefore know that you must become one with the bow, and with the arrow, and with the target
to say nothing of the horse.

... for a while
... for a little while...

(Just a filthy beggar blessing / What happens to the heart)
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Re: Symbolism of 'Different Sides'

Postby daka » Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:14 pm

Thanks for the Zen teaching, Jean.

I am a Tibetan Buddhist and have a very limited understanding of Zen but I believe we have both extraced Buddhist-driven meaning from the lyrics. The marvellous and miraculous thing about Leonard Cohen is that he can write something that is deeply appreciated by and has deep meaning for everyone; non Buddhists, Zen Buddhists, Tibetan Buddhists, and generic non-religious sufferers in samsara. I believe this is evidence of a deep holiness and spiritual power in the man. His deep humility is usually manifested only in extraordinary spiritual beings. I call him "Lama Leonard".

I will read your posting here many times to try to digest it.

Thankk you

Sean
If you become the ocean you will not become seasick....Jikan (aka Leonard Cohen)

It's comin' from the feel that this ain't exactly real, or it's real, but it ain't exactly there! . Jikan
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Re: Symbolism of 'Different Sides'

Postby Jean Fournell » Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:02 pm

Sean, I would be very sorry if I gave you an indigestion ;-)

And concerning "Lama Leonard", I can only subscribe to every word you say.

For an atheist and guru-hostile man like me, a true fellow human being like Leonard Cohen who does "ring the bells that still can ring", the sound he has brought about in me over all these decades is pretty uncomparable.

My one experience with Tibetan buddhism was like some kind of elation — zen for me is rather like grounding.
But the important thing, anatta, Leonard Cohen has one of these knacks to summon up that I can only call marvellous.

He most certainly is one "elaboration of a tube" that occurs pretty rarely in humans.

(And I do like the mischievous glance in the eyes of the Dalai Lama, too!)

Greetings from the "Absent Mare", J.
___________________________________________________
Therefore know that you must become one with the bow, and with the arrow, and with the target
to say nothing of the horse.

... for a while
... for a little while...

(Just a filthy beggar blessing / What happens to the heart)
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Re: Symbolism of 'Different Sides'

Postby daka » Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:30 pm

Hello Jean

How wonderful to finally encounter a contributing Buddhist in this forum!!

I am wondering if there might be a few others out there? I am sure there are. Maybe we can start a new thread inviting Buddhist "fans"/disciples (whatever) to remain in contact to discuss his impact on our lives? What do you think? There is a thread for many other subjects i.e. poetry of forum members etc etc.. What do you think?

Perhaps the youtube monk who interpreted his song "Love Itself" Sasaki Roshi might participate...I could email him. Let me know your interest first.




Sean
If you become the ocean you will not become seasick....Jikan (aka Leonard Cohen)

It's comin' from the feel that this ain't exactly real, or it's real, but it ain't exactly there! . Jikan
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Re: Symbolism of 'Different Sides'

Postby Jean Fournell » Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:14 pm

Hello Sean!

Your refreshingly youthful enthusiasm honours you, and it feels good to read you.

But there are a few "but"s:

First and foremost my own precious person: I'm a lazy old man, who actually doesn't have very much to say. This is my fifth post in this forum and in half a year (though the third today).
I would not like to feel any responsibility of whichsoever sort to queeze out some talk on a more or less regular basis...

Then there is the circumstance that I do not think that Leonard Cohen can be reduced to buddhism. Nor to monotheism. Nor to any kind of worldview.
If I do think that "Different Sides" concerns a teacher-disciple-relationship, I also think that "Going home behind the curtain / Going home to where it's better than before" refers clearly to an outworldly afterlife in some paradise — a monotheist idea. The revelation-prophet-relationship in that song could occur in polytheism as well, I admit, but some belief of some kind would certainly be required.

And if this forum is to shelter a chat-room for buddhists — soon with sub-chat-rooms for theravada, for mahayana, and for vajrayana —, there would have to be equivalent chat-rooms for monotheists — soon with sub-chat-rooms for judaism, for mazdeism, for christianism, and for islam —, for different polytheists with their respective sub-chat-rooms, for atheists, for philosophers, for anthroposophists, and for what not.

Each with their specific jargon and jargoning, of course, and their disputes about ill-defined concepts, and the related confusions.
Incomprehensible for the rest of the world.

"Down here where we live it is two" — all right, that can't be mended.
But undergo efforts in order to make hundreds of it?

(If I were a forum-administrator, I would ask to please reconsider the idea. Plurality of points of view does not necessarily imply plurality of group-interests.)

And without being an internet specialist, I'm pretty sure that there must be buddhist forums somewhere, perhaps even with a Leonard Cohen chat-room here or there...

For my part then, sorry though I am, I feel very much like closing this off-topic (with my apologies).

And may peace live inside you all. — J.
___________________________________________________
Therefore know that you must become one with the bow, and with the arrow, and with the target
to say nothing of the horse.

... for a while
... for a little while...

(Just a filthy beggar blessing / What happens to the heart)
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Re: Symbolism of 'Different Sides'

Postby daka » Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:29 pm

I agree with your wisdom, Jean. I am also a little old and tired. Let's just leave things to manifest or not, I am happy to have had this connection with you today after many years of (virtual) connections with various virtual people. It (This forum of virtual reality) has been very interesting, occasionally dramatic and amusing.

I did send an email to Shinzen Young giving him a link to this topic and inviting him to offer his commentary to "Different Sides" if he felt so inclined. We can leave it at that.

Thank you for your offerings

Sean

As an aside a good friend and quite an erudite and well-respected Buddhist scholar has set up a site where she discusses interesting and relevant Buddhist themes with people from all traditions. I suspect you might be interested in visiting her arena occasionally....

http://kadampalife.org/author/lucyhjames/

Her most recent article is: Essential issues for consideration in a study of world religions and there is a respectful and relevant sharing of opinions from many sources....That article is focused on whether Buddhism is a religion...what Buddhism is .. etc.

Bye for now

Sean
If you become the ocean you will not become seasick....Jikan (aka Leonard Cohen)

It's comin' from the feel that this ain't exactly real, or it's real, but it ain't exactly there! . Jikan
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Re: Symbolism of 'Different Sides'

Postby holydove » Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:20 pm

Tomsakic touched on this on the 1st page of this thread, & I'd like take it a little further. I think Different Sides, on a certain level, is Leonard's answer to the "Voice" that speaks to him in Going Home. The Voice could be his God, his Creator, or another "side" of himself; for simplicity in discussion, I will call it "The Voice". In Going Home, a conflict is presented, between The Voice & Leonard: Leonard wants to write a love song, etc., but the The Voice tells him that's not what it needs him to do, & that Leonard only has permission to do its instant bidding, & say what it has told him to repeat; & in Going Home, Leonard takes a very submissive position, saying that he doesn't have the freedom (recently changed to "cojones") to refuse, & he proceeds to say what The Voice has told him to say.

In Different Sides, Leonard has found his "cojones", & engages more aggressively in the conflict. "You want to change the way I make love/ I want to leave it alone": The way I see it, writing is Leonard's way of making love to the world, and/or to the Divine Presence (God, Shekinah, his own divine self, whatever). So here The Voice is still wanting Leonard to abide by its will & to write/live/love in a certain manner, but now Leonard is not submitting to The Voice, & he is stating his position on the matter, even going so far as to say he doesn't like its "tone" - its demanding tone, which insists on obedience to its "instant bidding". I think it is possibly The Voice telling Leonard to "Stop writing everything down", in the sense that The Voice wants him to only write some things down - those things which The Voice wills him, or tells him, to write down - but Leonard writes EVERYTHING down, & that is not what The Voice wants him to do.

I think the lyrics of Different Sides can be interpreted as addressing many, if not all, forms of duality - male/female, human/divine, self/other, the inner duality of self & self, etc. My purpose here was to look at it on the level of its connection to the dialogue of Going Home, & I think the fact that the two songs are the first & last on the album, points to their connection, & I think Different Sides is a kind of extension of the dialogue begun in Going Home, & Leonard's tone & position in the dialogue has been dramatically transformed in the interim.

I think Leonard's recent use of the word "cojones" (in Cairns) instead of "freedom" ("he just doesn't have the cojones to refuse"), ignited something for me & brought the realization of the connection between the 2 songs to another level. Because, while "cojones" is very funny, it's also very telling, & it brings another shade of meaning to the line. Before, I thought not having the freedom to refuse, meant that he had no choice but to obey The Voice. But now it seems that he is referring to the type of freedom which arises from the courage to engage in the conflict (as in, "come on back to the war"). So forgive me if I'm being repetitive, but it seems that the cojones that he doesn't have in Going Home, have undeniably emerged, in all their glory, in Different Sides. And I say, good for you, Leonard Cohen - keep on fighting & keep on writing everything down. I love it all.
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Re: Symbolism of 'Different Sides'

Postby daka » Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:09 pm

Thank you Holydove

...for your interpretation of the lyrics; I believe it has shed a lot of light on my own understandings. Although I had heard that Leonard's recent work has been dedicated to Roshi and his relationship with him I don't think I understood the truth/extent of this until I contemplated your interpretation; it makes perfect sense. I think your interpretation is very accurate. Only Leonard could testify, though and we are left to make our assumptions. Because the lyrics also applied to my many relationship dramas I easily projected that interpretation on the "struggles" . But maybe that struggle, between a man and woman debating who is holy/unholy is not really any different? The partner is always demanding improvement, perfection, holiness :). Some of the metaphors are obvious spiritual references like "..a shadowy guest kindles the light for the lost" which sounds like Leonard's teacher.

I think you are right about the struggle being between the two sides of Leonard, human/ordinary and spiritual truth seeker. The spiritual side is both Leonard's aspiring monk-holy-man-self and his teacher...like a tag team.

Thank you also for the news flash about "cojones" in the song as a lyric! I lived in Spain for nine years and have an intimate understanding of the power of that word. Leonard has them in spades and has displayed this in many ways.

He is such a special person!

Sean
If you become the ocean you will not become seasick....Jikan (aka Leonard Cohen)

It's comin' from the feel that this ain't exactly real, or it's real, but it ain't exactly there! . Jikan
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Re: Symbolism of 'Different Sides'

Postby Jean Fournell » Fri Nov 29, 2013 5:36 pm

Wow!

I've come here just in order to post this:

—————

Retrospectively, I'm afraid not to have been all that clear about my dislike of the guru and my deep appreciation of the teacher:

• A guru tells you where to go.

• A teacher tells you that he himself happens to have two feet, but that he is in no position, of course, to speak for anyone else.

"Follow me!" the wise man
said, but he walked behind.
(Teachers)

—————

And then I find holydove's post. How right you are, holydove!

From the obedient prophet "Going home",
through the valley of tears "Amen",
where you lose every sense of orientation "Show me the place / Where you want your slave to go",
and where an unanswering God leaves you in utter "Darkness ... I used to love the rainbow" (His promise broken),
cursing Him and dealing in guilt and begging for mercy "Anyhow ... And both of us are guilty",
finding access to the root "Crazy to love you ... Had to let everything fall" (the "grounding"),
from where there can "Come healing ... O troubled dust concealing / An undivided love / The Heart beneath is teaching / To the broken Heart above"
as well as recognition and acceptance of impermanence "Banjo ... Its duty is to harm me / My duty is to know",
but still with the hook planted which might eventually hawl you back into some afterlife "Lullaby ... There's a morning to come"
to the achievement. Yes, "Different sides" requires cojones.

Gratefulness for being told no more than "someone has two feet" requires cojones.
As following someone who is taking pains to keep walking behind you requires cojones.

The tao that can be named is not the tao, says the Taoteking.

Different sides that can be named are not different sides, says Freedom.

Just put the ground under your feet and walk. (In peace, if I may add)
___________________________________________________
Therefore know that you must become one with the bow, and with the arrow, and with the target
to say nothing of the horse.

... for a while
... for a little while...

(Just a filthy beggar blessing / What happens to the heart)
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Re: Symbolism of 'Different Sides'

Postby holydove » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:54 pm

Sean & Jean, thank you for your comments & insights - all very interesting.
daka wrote:
Some of the metaphors are obvious spiritual references like "..a shadowy guest kindles the light for the lost" which sounds like Leonard's teacher.

Sean
Sean, I agree that the verse you refer to is indeed very spiritual, & I see that verse as the point, or center, of unity, amidst the ocean of duality; & I think it's significant that this verse is right in the middle/center of the song - not counting the choruses, there are five verses, & this is the third verse.

"The pull of the moon the thrust of the sun/ And thus the ocean is crossed/ The waters are blessed while a shadowy guest/ Kindles a light for the lost".

The teachings of Kabbalah say that the Shekinah Glory hovers over the marriage bed when a man & woman sexually unite. So here is one possible interpretation of this verse, as I see it: the sun is the male energy & the moon is female energy, & pulling & thrusting are opposite but complementary actions (as well as very sexual imagery, I think), resulting in unity by crossing the ocean of duality. It could be universal male/female energies, or the male/female energies within oneself.The Shekinah Glory is a name for God's presence in the material world, & it's said to often manifest as bright light, or radiance. So the "shadowy guest", while as you mentioned, could be Leonard's teacher, it could also be the Shekinah - "shadowy" because it is a non-physical presence, & "guest" because, in our perception, its presence comes & goes, & also because it's said that when the Shekinah visits, her presence should be treated as one would treat an honored & greatly respected guest in one's house. The Shekinah, as God's presence on earth, has also functioned explicitly as a "guiding light" - for instance, in Exodus, it's said that "the Lord's presence led the people of Israel by day in a pillar of cloud & by night in a pillar of fire". But I think any time such radiance manifests, it could be seen as a "guiding light". It is also said that the Shekinah glory illuminated the earth prior to the creation of the sun & moon (in Genesis, first the Lord said, "Let there be light"; & later, "Let there be lights in the expanse of sky to separate day from night. .."). So the lyrics could be indicating a re-uniting of the sun & moon, with the merging of these separate lights bringing a return of the one primordial divine light - the Shekinah Glory.
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Re: Symbolism of 'Different Sides'

Postby daka » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:47 pm

Hello Hollydove

Thank you for your Kabbalah interpretation, it seems to be a good one; I am completely unenlightened about that particular spiritual tradition.

For the first half of his life Leonard was immersed in one spiritual tradition, for the second half he was immersed in another and he obviously draws from both. He has evolved from both.

There is something special about Leonard's song lyrics, they apply to everyone. This is a quality of highly realized teachers, in one teaching they can teach beginners, intermediate and advanced students equally well. Most ordinary beings like me do not have this special ability. In Leonard's songs a Jewish person, a Zen Buddhist, a Tibetan Buddhist, a Christian, a Hedonist, an ordinary love-wounded listener, everyone can find very deep meaning. Perhaps it is in the unspoken, in the body language, in the emotion, in the authenticity, in the simplicity, the minimalism, in the exquisite wisdom that allows Leonard to create multiple-meaning metaphors for multitudinous varieties of spiritual and aspiritual listeners. How wonderful! I know that literary and musical history will mark him as possibly the most powerful poet, the the most clever lyricist, the most enduring performer of our times. (and also one of the most humble men and most human human beings.

Sean
If you become the ocean you will not become seasick....Jikan (aka Leonard Cohen)

It's comin' from the feel that this ain't exactly real, or it's real, but it ain't exactly there! . Jikan
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Re: Symbolism of 'Different Sides'

Postby daka » Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:52 am

Two Zen Men

Two Zen men
Helped me to see
The mystery
of Len

And you are one of them

(dedicated to Jean Fournell and Shinzen Young)

Thank you,

Sean
If you become the ocean you will not become seasick....Jikan (aka Leonard Cohen)

It's comin' from the feel that this ain't exactly real, or it's real, but it ain't exactly there! . Jikan
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Re: Symbolism of 'Different Sides'

Postby Jean Fournell » Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:31 am

Sean,

in Zen, when we become aware that something occurs that needn't be talked to death, we lay our upright hands palm against palm, and press them together with our forearms in a straight horizontal line, and use this as a non-existing staff to lean on, and thus bow in the presence of that which occurs — occurs on both sides of our perception.
(And I do feel honoured.):

____()____ J.

● — ● — ●

Initially, I had come in order to post this:

Hey, this is gorgeous!

Yes, Sean, this is indeed one of the most interesting ones of "the holy places where the races meet" — or should I rather say: all kinds of folk from "different sides"?

Apparently, I'm not the only one who got stuck on "a shadowy guest", but holydove has pried me loose and set me moving again:

The kabbalah is unknown to me, too, except for a vague idea that it is concerned with jewish mystique; and mystics have always been the enfants terribles of any religion.
This is by no means intented to carry any kind of deprecatory meaning at all — I'm one of those enfants terribles myself, and there are others:
"exquisite music, [Dalai Lama] laughing / your First Commitments tangible again".

Now I did know that the teacher/Roshi interpretation of the "shadowy guest" is correct, certainly sir, but only as far as it goes, and that I had gotten myself entangled in a shamefully short understanding as compared to this wonderful piece of teaching by Leonard Cohen.

What blocked me was a mental link to the "Purusha-witness" dear to Sri Aurobindo (let's translate in a nutshell: "greater self"), thus having an association that there were some kind of permanence hovering behind Impermanence.
Far from sufficient in this last song of the "Old Ideas" Pilgrim's Progress.

If I may profanely compare it to a gas water-heater:

The pilot-flame keeps burning and ignites the impermanent heating flame when the change in water pressure opens the gas supply.

And now thank you, holydove, for helping me out:

" "guest" because, in our perception, its presence comes & goes, & also because it's said that when the Shekinah visits, her presence should be treated as one would treat an honored & greatly respected guest in one's house"

In more recent gas water-heaters, there is no pilot-flame.
An electric spark ignites the gas.
And this impermanent electric spark is fundamentally different from the gas flame (somewhat at right angles, if I may repeat myself).

But comparison is not reasoning.
Therefore let's say:

"You know who I am,
you've stared at the sun,
well I am the one
who loves changing from nothing to one."
___________________________________________________
Therefore know that you must become one with the bow, and with the arrow, and with the target
to say nothing of the horse.

... for a while
... for a little while...

(Just a filthy beggar blessing / What happens to the heart)
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Re: Symbolism of 'Different Sides'

Postby daka » Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:04 am

____()____ S.
If you become the ocean you will not become seasick....Jikan (aka Leonard Cohen)

It's comin' from the feel that this ain't exactly real, or it's real, but it ain't exactly there! . Jikan

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