The voices in Nightingale

Leonard Cohen's recent albums - share your views with others!
User avatar
tomsakic
Posts: 5245
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2002 2:12 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Postby tomsakic » Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:38 pm

tom.d.stiller wrote:...an author being considered the most valuable source of interpretation of his own works. That's why I think that the relevance of the author's biography for the interpretation of his texts is vastly overstated. (Of course, the author's statements are helpful hints And the same goes for his biography.)
The only truth. And it's funny how Leonard's work proves that. The best example is the "lost reference" in Famous Blue Raincoat, and the political statements of his songs like Democracy and The Future - it seems that Leonard's own beliefs aren't same as those commonly perceived from those songs. (and there's his great quotation I am not able to find: about how he must to clean all his personal beliefs while he writes the songs - that's why it takes so long - because the song is not interested in his own prejudicies/statements/beliefs)
User avatar
lizzytysh
Posts: 25340
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Florida, U.S.A.

Postby lizzytysh » Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:55 pm

Hi Linda ~

My local, video store has VHS tapes on sale at $3.99/$4.99/etc. on a buy one, get one free basis. For me, these prices are worth it, and the best part is that you can return for a replacement any that are flawed.

~ Lizzy
Tchocolatl
Posts: 3781
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm

Postby Tchocolatl » Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:17 pm

"Dead Poet's Society" is the best example of scraps that can be produced out of Romanticism. If you want to enjoy Robin Williams at his best try The Fisher King.
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
jurica
Posts: 626
Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:31 pm
Location: Croatia

Postby jurica » Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:26 pm

Tchocolatl wrote:"Dead Poet's Society" is the best example of scraps that can be produced out of Romanticism. If you want to enjoy Robin Williams at his best try The Fisher King.
i'll second that!
User avatar
tomsakic
Posts: 5245
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2002 2:12 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Postby tomsakic » Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:56 pm

I agree. It's junk. And Mona Lise Smile is not far from that, being called "Dead Poets Society for women".
User avatar
lizzytysh
Posts: 25340
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Florida, U.S.A.

Postby lizzytysh » Mon Jan 03, 2005 6:03 pm

I liked some of the points it made regarding how we listen to/evaluate poetry... and that everyone has their own voice, worthy of being heard. I also liked the point it made regarding young people [particularly in some of 'status' realms] being allowed to live their own lives. I also liked the point it made regarding education, period. Thinking and acting outside the box can open new horizons for students.

[Tee-Hee], but not everyone will like the same films for the same reasons, if at all. I've not seen Mona Lisa Smile, yet, but will simply because of Julia Roberts being in it. Sorry :wink: ~ can't help it. Love watching her on the wide screen. However, from what I understand, regardless of how you feel about the film regarding other aspects, it still made some valid points regarding women's choices during those years, due to social/familial expectations.
User avatar
linda_lakeside
Posts: 3857
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea..

Postby linda_lakeside » Mon Jan 03, 2005 8:00 pm

Well, the only one I have seen is The Fisher King and I really enjoyed it. I liked Robin Williams very much although it always seems as though he's just on the edge of explosion (I guess he probably is).

you're right tom, what business does the author have to say in anything, in his own way, about his own life? :wink: I do agree that you're probably correct in that the author is not going to give you the best unbiased look at his work (not to mention the good stuff). I think Tom Sakic is interested in Leonard's work. Ssshh. Secret.

Lizzy, that's a great deal on tapes. Personally, I don't care if they're VHS or what, some movies just come across no matter how or on what they were recorded. However, the whole planned obsolescense thing is a little scary. Not so long ago a family saved a long time for luxury items, now with easy credit and cheap goods - yesterday's treasure is tomorrow's garbage.
User avatar
lizzytysh
Posts: 25340
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Florida, U.S.A.

Postby lizzytysh » Mon Jan 03, 2005 8:06 pm

You're right, Linda. That's why you keep that VCR and DVD player, along with your VHS tapes and DVDs. Otherwise, what a loss, unless conversions become more feasible.
Tchocolatl
Posts: 3781
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm

Postby Tchocolatl » Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:39 am

and that everyone has their own voice, worthy of being heard. I also liked the point it made regarding young people [particularly in some of 'status' realms] being allowed to live their own lives. I also liked the point it made regarding education, period. Thinking and acting outside the box can open new horizons for students.
Elizabeth those are parts of my favourite things also, but I just do not like the way the movie shows these ideas. Just like for Munch that had painted the same subjects that occupied Leonard Cohen (and Francesco Petrarca for some of them), but I do not like the form Munch used, while I'm fan of the man. To come back to american cinema, American Beauty for me makes it better to express those ideas, not just for students, but for everybody, as long as one is alive - one is not dead :? (very deep insight ... hue ...) so the stream of life (may I say this?) continue to flow through the individual.

Linda, RW is a hyperactiv in real life - at least he said it.

Tom, I think that he does not always say (LC) exactly what he is thinking, even though I think he exactly knows what he is doing. This man, after all, sales dreams. :D
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
User avatar
tomsakic
Posts: 5245
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2002 2:12 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Postby tomsakic » Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:19 pm

Back to Ramesh Balsekar... There are many parts of The Files I don't know because it was before my time... like this news. Leonard's trips to India aren't the news for older fans here.
User avatar
tom.d.stiller
Posts: 1202
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 8:18 am
Location: ... between the lines ...

Postby tom.d.stiller » Fri Jan 14, 2005 7:27 pm

Tom Sakic wrote:The only truth. And it's funny how Leonard's work proves that. The best example is the "lost reference" in Famous Blue Raincoat, and the political statements of his songs like Democracy and The Future - it seems that Leonard's own beliefs aren't same as those commonly perceived from those songs. (and there's his great quotation I am not able to find: about how he must to clean all his personal beliefs while he writes the songs - that's why it takes so long - because the song is not interested in his own prejudicies/statements/beliefs)
Tchocolatl wrote:Tom, I think that he does not always say (LC) exactly what he is thinking, even though I think he exactly knows what he is doing. This man, after all, sales dreams.
Tom, the problem is that Leonard sometimes just answers questions to get rid of the interviewer disturbing him with them. Looking at some of the interviews he gave, I can see how he tries not to answer, then feeds us an answer that doesn't exactly correspond to the question. Even where he says something it's not really reliable, and he does this systematically and deliberately.

That he's selling dreams, Tchocolatl, is a possible reason for this, I agree. On the other hand, if he doesn't want to give us the full complexity of meanings after he worked for years on pushing it into a few lines, and the interviewers keep pursuing him with those questions, what can he do?

I'd say he gives an answer that is deliberately misleading, but one that contains a hint we should follow.

tom
User avatar
lizzytysh
Posts: 25340
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Florida, U.S.A.

Postby lizzytysh » Fri Jan 14, 2005 7:33 pm

Yes, Tom, I agree with your assessment of Leonard's unique, interviewing techniques. It's very apparent that he could be answering otherwise, but chooses not to. After so many years of blood, sweat, and tears, going into a song intended to last at least another 30 years, why would he provide listeners with verbal Cliff Notes to them? Makes no sense to me. It would also sidestep all of his incredible artistry that brought the song into being, as we know it. Yes, it is also up to us to ferret out those hints. He's already well aware that his work is the stuff of scholars. He knew that from the very beginning, as he wrote with focus and 'intention' from the onset.

~ Elizabeth
Tchocolatl
Posts: 3781
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm

Postby Tchocolatl » Sat Jan 15, 2005 4:17 pm

Yes, to put it more straight : He is in the show business. Although I never read false comments from him I often admire the way he escapes with grace from being cut in a trap of some really slippery questions - biased questions where it is evident the interviewer wants to hear the answer that pleases him(her) or others slippery questions.

I am very skeptical about his public being all scholars and him wanting it to be. It is not "his fault" if he has a University degree and if he reports of this reality like others realities of him. Scholars discuss in scholar manners (normal) about his work while others just enjoy it without much comments, than sometimes, deep emotional expression. From my point of view, both are OK.
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
User avatar
lizzytysh
Posts: 25340
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Florida, U.S.A.

Postby lizzytysh » Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:09 pm

Hi Tchocolatl ~

Just to clarify: When I said, "He's already well aware that his work is the stuff of scholars [/] . . . " it was not the same as "I am very skeptical about his public being all scholars [/] . . . " It didn't mean that all of his public are scholars, but rather that his work already contains all the alleys, lanes, and extra doors that he knows will be appealing for scholars to study and walk down/open. It's akin to the saying here that, "An orange is a fruit; but not all fruit is oranges."

With Leonard's having studied English Literature in a scholastic/'scholar' setting, and lived/socialized in the company of other writers, I believe that the deeper/long-lasting mark of 'literature' was constructed in his work by intent. In one of the earlier documentary-type films about him, it is noted that he made it a point to have many photographs of himself taken from very early on because he expected one day to be famous, and that those photographs would be valued at that time. That's a paraphrase, but the point remains that Leonard has always approached his work from a serious, long-term perspective, which would include scholars [some of whom have since become known as "Leonard Cohen scholars," due to their focusing on him, in particular] studying and analyzing his body of work.

~ Lizzy
Tchocolatl
Posts: 3781
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm

Postby Tchocolatl » Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:27 am

I know it was not the same. I was not repeating what you were saying, I was expressing something different. :D
He's already well aware that his work is the stuff of scholars. He knew that from the very beginning, as he wrote with focus and 'intention' from the onset.
I understood this as "his work is the stuff of scolars".

And I think "A part of his work is the stuff of scolars".

I think he is aware that his work is for all the persons who appreciate it, and he let to the listener the choice of appreciate it in the way it fits him or her.
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers

Return to “Live in London, Dear Heather, The Essential Leonard Cohen, Ten New Songs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests