"come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

This is for your own works!!!
User avatar
Geoffrey
Posts: 2327
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:11 am

Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Geoffrey » Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:17 pm

Cate wrote:Thinking back to your own close losses, did you ever get lost in that merry go round of intrusive thoughts? 'why didn't I... I should have ... maybe if I had...'
hello dear cate. so good to be in touch again.

i lost four immediate family members within a very small margin of time, but can mention two of them. i was together with my wife when she died, i knew everything there was to know - so no mystery. my daughter was a different matter, it was a shock, i didn't understand anything, the circumstances were horrendous. i felt that the only path through it, to begin the healing process, was to find out as much as possible - and that worked for me. at the police station i insisted on reading all documentation. the autopsy report consisted of many pages, minute details.

i was not allowed a copy, not even to take pictures with a mobile phone, but it was permitted to make notes. to the frustration of the officers i returned early the following day with pencil and notepad, stayed there many hours writing down the entire document. we deal with loss in our different ways, and that was mine. i read that photographs were taken, and asked to see them. an officer came with a pile of them, they were large, and put the pile face down on the desk. he turned them over one by one, each more detailed than the one before. i managed to see them all except the final two. they were close-ups, i was told, and i was strongly advised not to insist on seeing them. at that point, already long since broken down, i weakened. wanted so much to see them, but in my fragile state had no choice but to relent, didn't dare. the policeman was very kind, told me that should i change my mind i could come back, as they would be archived. i didn't return, but did visit the room where my daughter died - stayed there the whole night. came out in the morning relieved, it was over, the pain had been sort of exorcised.

well, i had not intended to write so much, cate - but at least it is an account of how one person deals with loss. had i not reacted the way i did, demanded to know all there was to know, my imagination would never have given me peace. it was a tough time, but reaching rock bottom gives a sort of comfort. one becomes confident that the worst is known, and everything after that must be less hurtful. we have to stand up every time we are knocked down, enjoy ourselves, not spend the rest of our lives afraid of what is hidden. i need to know what happened to leonard.

if i read now through what i have written in this message, it will be deleted before being posted - so apologies for any mistakes - and for writing too much. i promise to be brief next time :-)
User avatar
juneC
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:40 pm

Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby juneC » Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:32 pm

Geoffrey wrote:
Cate wrote:Thinking back to your own close losses, did you ever get lost in that merry go round of intrusive thoughts? 'why didn't I... I should have ... maybe if I had...'
hello dear cate. so good to be in touch again.

i lost four immediate family members within a very small margin of time, but can mention two of them. i was together with my wife when she died, i knew everything there was to know - so no mystery. my daughter was a different matter, it was a shock, i didn't understand anything, the circumstances were horrendous. i felt that the only path through it, to begin the healing process, was to find out as much as possible - and that worked for me. at the police station i insisted on reading all documentation. the autopsy report consisted of many pages, minute details.

i was not allowed a copy, not even to take pictures with a mobile phone, but it was permitted to make notes. to the frustration of the officers i returned early the following day with pencil and notepad, stayed there many hours writing down the entire document. we deal with loss in our different ways, and that was mine. i read that photographs were taken, and asked to see them. an officer came with a pile of them, they were large, and put the pile face down on the desk. he turned them over one by one, each more detailed than the one before. i managed to see them all except the final two. they were close-ups, i was told, and i was strongly advised not to insist on seeing them. at that point, already long since broken down, i weakened. wanted so much to see them, but in my fragile state had no choice but to relent, didn't dare. the policeman was very kind, told me that should i change my mind i could come back, as they would be archived. i didn't return, but did visit the room where my daughter died - stayed there the whole night. came out in the morning relieved, it was over, the pain had been sort of exorcised.

well, i had not intended to write so much, cate - but at least it is an account of how one person deals with loss. had i not reacted the way i did, demanded to know all there was to know, my imagination would never have given me peace. it was a tough time, but reaching rock bottom gives a sort of comfort. one becomes confident that the worst is known, and everything after that must be less hurtful. we have to stand up every time we are knocked down, enjoy ourselves, not spend the rest of our lives afraid of what is hidden. i need to know what happened to leonard.

if i read now through what i have written in this message, it will be deleted before being posted - so apologies for any mistakes - and for writing too much. i promise to be brief next time :-)

Hello again Geoffrey :?

I hesitate to ask this question Geoffrey, but as I keep thinking about it I may as well. Have you tried contacting Kezban and putting your questions to her? or would that not be appropriate? It's only that I thought she would be the one most likely to have been in close proximity to Leonard on that dreadful day/night, with Lorca and family living below and Adam living close by but in a different house. Or am I talking out of the top of my head !?!
June x
Vicomte
Posts: 829
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:49 am
Location: Saint Malo Bretagne

Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Vicomte » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:12 am

Mabeanie1 wrote: ......As for Barcelona, I thought Leonard was still less than 100%. Vicomte thought he was on great form with no sign of anything amiss. That's great. Leonard would be pleased that he covered the cracks so well.[/b][/i]

Wendy
He wouldn't be happy with a misquote like that Wendy, this is what I actually said:

Two days later after the Valencia gig where Leonard collapsed on stage, (the Spanish papers said that it was food poisoning) we were in the front row in Barcelona and I have to be honest, he looked fine and I have to say, definitely not showing signs of exhaustion, unlike later in the final throes of the tour where he had started to look frail.....

Can't see any indication of the words "he was on great form" was he ever on anything less than fine form albeit not on the occasion we speak of in Valencia. Anyway that's as was.
I guess it all started for me sometime around Christmas 1967 and now, goodness me, it's.........2017 and fifty years later.
No one ever listens to me. I might as well be a Leonard Cohen record.
Neil from The Young Ones
Vicomte
Posts: 829
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:49 am
Location: Saint Malo Bretagne

Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Vicomte » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:20 am

Geoffrey your last few posts have certainly made several valid points. Would Adam, Lorca or Rufus (?) have any wish to come out with something concrete, maybe in the future perhaps but Robert Kory, the more I think about it can now not go over the heads of Leonard's family and say anything really. So the best we might get is something along those lines from him. I am starting to think of the old closed shop and the hope it will all just drift off, which I honestly feel is not right. We shall see but I do wonder why very few others are not interested in Leonard's true manner of demise.
I guess it all started for me sometime around Christmas 1967 and now, goodness me, it's.........2017 and fifty years later.
No one ever listens to me. I might as well be a Leonard Cohen record.
Neil from The Young Ones
MaryB
Posts: 3945
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:40 am
Location: Columbus, Ohio USA

Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby MaryB » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:43 am

Vicomte wrote: We shall see but I do wonder why very few others are not interested in Leonard's true manner
of demise.
Vicomte,

I sure that there are others, beside myself, who are interested. But, as I have been following this thread, there is nothing more that I can add that hasn't already been said and said very well.

juneC makes a good point in trying to contact Kezban, but being so close to LC, probably a confidant, she may not be willing to add any additional info. Still, if management in not responding, Kezban may be worth a shot. Who knows, it may all be in the approach...

I am so glad that, you, Geoffrey, had the courage to voice what many of us are questioning.

Kindest regards,
Mary

Edit - There has to be interest Vicomte. I just looked at the # of views of this thread and there are almost 1800! Somebody is following this beside my silent self :)
1993 Detroit 2008 Kitchener June 2-Hamilton June 3 & 4-Vienna Sept 24 & 25-London RAH Nov 17 2009 NYC Feb 19-Grand Prairie Apr 3-Phoenix Apr 5-Columbia May 11-Red Rocks Jun 4-Barcelona Sept 21-Columbus Oct 27-Las Vegas Nov 12-San Jose Nov 13 2010 Sligo Jul 31 & Aug 1-LV Dec 10 & 11 2012 Paris Sept 30-London Dec 11-Boston Dec 16 2013 Louisville Mar 30-Amsterdam Sept 20
Cate
Posts: 3457
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:27 am

Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Cate » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:35 am

Dear G. thank you for your previous post and for leaving it up - It's rare that I can spot a mistake so no worries when typing to me.
Geoffrey wrote:i lost four immediate family members within a very small margin of time, but can mention two of them. ...
Losing you wife and daughter in such a short period of time and really not so very long ago, must make times like this feel even more raw. Thank you for sharing with us a bit of your story in regards to your grief. It is indeed something that we do not talk about often. There can't be any greater pain or loss then that of a child. I can't imagine what that was like but I think I would also want every detail.
One of my faviourite Leonard Cohen prayers which in my head has become simply, 'let my children dance on my grave'.
BESIDE MY SON

May you bless the union of your mother and father
May you discard easily the husks of my thought
May you stand on my dead body

Leonard Cohen
Death of Lady's Man
Violet,
I know that right from the beginning you've had concerns (valid concerns) about missing and misinformation that seemed to be floating around and had some very questions. You're a critical thinker so that's not surprising. I have always found you to be of a sensitive nature (how can a violet not be? :) ). I only mentioned the family because the word negligent came up and I think there might be other potential reasons for silence.
User avatar
Violet
Posts: 3195
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:07 pm
Location: New York

Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Violet » Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:40 am

Cate wrote: Violet,
I know that right from the beginning you've had concerns (valid concerns) about missing and misinformation that seemed to be floating around and had some very questions. You're a critical thinker so that's not surprising. I have always found you to be of a sensitive nature (how can a violet not be? :) ). I only mentioned the family because the word negligent came up and I think there might be other potential reasons for silence.
Hi Cate.

I don't question at all your bringing up the concerns of the family, and if I was the one who used the word negligent than I'd like to retract that, especially since what it connotes is not at all what I was intending. It's difficult sometimes when you're thinking aloud in a post, attempting to analyze a situation while at the same time not be insensitive given the subject at hand.

On the other hand, a thread like this is given to supposition and trying things on for size. It's not going to come out entirely polished or well considered on all fronts. But at least it continues and so one has the chance to retract and amend.


Geoffrey,

I'm so sorry to hear about your wife and daughter. It was grueling just reading of your experience concerning your daughter's death. I think I would have reacted similarly. But how awful for you. I do hope time has been healing.
Violet
User avatar
Geoffrey
Posts: 2327
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:11 am

Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Geoffrey » Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:50 am

leonard was so light, no one heard him fall in the middle of the night. his body was found the following morning on the bathroom floor when someone entered his apartment. the appropriate services were called, and it was established he had been dead several hours. is this what happened?

it would be unfair to expect kezban to comment. the management included an email address on its statement. i wrote to that address and "no answer came the stern reply" - as they say. it would be naive to believe that those involved in this matter are not monitoring this snowballing discussion. it is a safe bet that nothing being said here is going unnoticed.

so, does anyone have a suggestion on which direction should now be taken? apply to the los angeles public records office for a copy of an accident/incident report? take contact with an investigative reporter, for example? what do you think?

wendy, i had no intention to sleight you, and apologise if my clumsy remarks indicated such.

violet, i know nothing about the closed LA memorial service. was it a private affair? also, thank you so much for the warm sentence at the bottom of your most recent post. yes, it was a hard experience, but i survived. i am a person who can breathe better with my head out of the sand :-)
-gx
User avatar
Violet
Posts: 3195
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:07 pm
Location: New York

Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Violet » Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:01 am

Geoffrey wrote: violet, i know nothing about the closed LA memorial service. was it a private affair?
My understanding is that it was just close friends and family, but I only saw an online comment concerning that, so maybe someone here could confirm.
Violet
User avatar
Mabeanie1
Posts: 2610
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:03 am
Location: Warwickshire, UK

Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Mabeanie1 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:52 am

Vicomte - my apologies if I misrepresented you. I was not trying to quote you but I was typing on my phone on a train and I did not go back through the thread to see exactly what you had said which I should have done. All I recalled was that you had a different perception of the Barcelona show to me.

Geoffrey - no offence taken. My tongue was firmly in my cheek .....

I was deeply moved by your story of your response to your daughter's death. It is only natural for a parent to want to understand but few would have had your courage. I know I would not be brave enough go through police and autopsy reports in that way.

Wendy
User avatar
Mabeanie1
Posts: 2610
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:03 am
Location: Warwickshire, UK

Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Mabeanie1 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:08 pm

Geoffrey wrote: so, does anyone have a suggestion on which direction should now be taken? apply to the los angeles public records office for a copy of an accident/incident report? take contact with an investigative reporter, for example? what do you think?

-gx
Soon after Leonard died and before R Kory issued his statement I had the thought to apply for a copy of his death certificate and got so far as to check out whether such things were public record in CA and to look up what I needed to do. I had not been prepared for the news and was confused at the sometimes conflicting reports of cancer, leukaemia, coma, a fall and so on. However, I did not follow through and make the application. I would still like to know what it says.

W
User avatar
juneC
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:40 pm

Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby juneC » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:45 pm

Following Allan Showalter’s posting of Robert Kory's statement there were several comments including these from 'Mandy' /Allan Showalter. Apologies to you if you have already seen this Geoffrey. (and to everyone else who has posted to this thread) (I hasten to add I don't know who Mandy is - she may well also be a member of this forum)
Link to page:
[url]http://cohencentric.com/2016/11/16/stat ... ent-175602

You will note that Allan’s understanding is that Leonard died during the daytime on Monday conflicting with Mr Kory’s “middle of the night’

Mandy
November 17, 2016 at 1:01 am
This leaves me with more questions than answers. If he passed away in the middle of the night of the 7th, that would make it the 8th, or was it in the middle of the night of the 6th which would make it the 7th?
If he fell in the middle of the night, how do we know he did if he went to sleep and did not wake up? Was someone with him to witness the fall? I can’t shake the feeling of foul play

DrHGuy

My understanding is that he fell asleep sometime after the fall but before dusk Monday.
He died in his sleep during the daytime on Monday
:?:

Mandy
November 19, 2016 12:45 pm
I know this will sound cynical and I even question my own mind, given that I seem
to be the only one picking up on this, and Allan, if you don’t want to publish this post, I
would understand. I just feel the passing of Leonard too convenient – just in time for the
release of his new album. The only way to promote an album is to tour, since he could not
tour, what better way than if you can’t tour to promote your album than to die – we all
know artists are appreciated even more when they’re gone. I feel, and I hope I’m wrong,
but I do wonder if his death was deliberate, the burial unusually hushed, even for one as
private as Leonard, before anybody could ask any questions. A fall? I’m not buying it. I am
not sure if I believe if the death was deliberate, such as him being slowly poisoned
(follow the money trail and see who was the greediest person/people around him, and
there were no shortage of those, there never are), he may have been complicit in it,
knowing he had to go at some point, if he did indeed have cancer, then why not go out with
a splash, huh? As I said, I hope I am wrong and G-d forgive me if I am, but my intuition is
that something foul went down. Then again, I’ve always been cynical about the motives of
those surrounding Leonard.]
User avatar
Geoffrey
Posts: 2327
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:11 am

Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Geoffrey » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:51 pm

suggestions that leonard committed suicide have already been put forward to me, and have been dismissed. i stand by a social media message i wrote at the time:

"leonard might not have lived very much longer, accident or not. despite any pain, i am sure every day was tolerable, valuable to him, that he had no intention of going anywhere that night. he was alive, remained creative, was hoping to complete work on a few things, knew that every day was precious, that to carry on for as long as possible was preferred when the alternative is to be dead for eternity."

neither do i believe he was poisoned, of course - this is hardly a hollywood script.

i don't know their legitimacy, but below are links to a couple of sites. if anyone knows better ones i would appreciate a nod. the first one concerns ordering a los angeles death certificate, the second a los angeles site purporting to undertake investigative journalism. is there anyone here willing to take this a step further? i would do it, but only if everyone else is too frightened. what say you? i will wait a day or two and see if i receive a response.

death certificates:
https://usvitalrecords.org/california/d ... GQodS_gKlQ

investigative journalism
https://www.revealnews.org/about-us/
User avatar
juneC
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:40 pm

Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby juneC » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:49 pm

No.. I certainly agree the poisoning suggestion is ridiculous. I do think the discrepancies between Allan Showalter and Robert Kory’s versions in respect of time of death being in the middle of the night/daytime ?? are interesting though.
I hear what you say about every moment on this earth being precious to Leonard, however I have heard him say in several interviews that whilst he had no fear of dying it was the preliminaries that concerned him and how he hoped it wouldn’t be too uncomfortable. We can’t really know how much distress he was in can we? Maybe - if we assume the cancer was terminal - he had already been told by his doctors how much longer he had. Perhaps that is where the ‘six weeks left’ came in as apparently he told a fellow Montrealer friend also living in L.A. Also we know from Adam that he was apparently allergic to the medication, whatever it was and he could therefore have been in excruciating pain destined to only become worse with the progression of the cancer. In such dire circumstances would he still have been able to write anything ? even though his indomitable spirit was still urging him to carry on ?
Myself, I think in the circumstances, I would prefer to think Leonard chose the time himself, with his family round him rather than the thought of him falling in the night and that leading up to him potentially dying alone. That is the thought that bothers me most - that he might have died alone, it is my fervent hope that he didn’t.

This is what Leonard said in October 2001 in an interview with the guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/theobserver ... magazine37

"I don't think much about [death], but in a certain stage in your life it becomes very clear that your time is not unlimited. Tennessee Williams said: "Life is a fairly well-written play, except for the third act." I'm maybe at the third act, where you have the benefit of the experience of the first two acts. But how it ends is nobody's business and is generally accompanied by some disagreeable circumstances."
User avatar
Violet
Posts: 3195
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:07 pm
Location: New York

Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Violet » Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:05 pm

Hi June, Geoffrey.

There is also the scenario (and I don't recall the source) that he was feeling better than he had been during the making of the album. Again, I think that's why the death was termed "unexpected." He was having something of a reprieve from the kind of pain he'd been experiencing, and so he was intending on working on these various projects, including some work on the next album.

[Later note: since Geoffrey isn't interested in the timeline idea, I thought to remove it. Too bad, it might have been interesting.]
Last edited by Violet on Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Violet

Return to “Writing, Music and Art by the Forum members”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests