"come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

This is for your own works!!!
solongleonard
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby solongleonard » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:48 am

Geoffrey wrote: but none of that can be compared to the construction men outside my home who work all night, their faces black with smoke and tar, their backs bent over as they stressfully shovel and rake boiling asphalt behind huge, noisy paver vehicles in preparation for the waiting steamrollers. when i see this, i know i am nothing, i couldn't survive ten minutes - it would kill me.

-gx

Sir Chris, you are far too modest. Whilst your St Paul's Cathedral is hardly a St Mark's Basilica, I still admire it knowing you laid the tar. There is one of your buildings though which I really rate and you told me you drew the plans as well as flying the steamroller. I have in mind of course the Kaden Tower, Kentucky, which you signed top right.
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Violet
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Violet » Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:04 am

Dear June,

I just wanted to apologize to you for what must have seemed very insensitive behavior on my part. I know I was being glib, but my intention was just as I said was -- to warn you about some of the very strange characters back here in this section. It took me approximately two years of hanging out (once upon a time) to realize that at least 50% of those strange characters (if not more) belonged to just two people (!)

Anyway, you should do what you like. The two of them are highly intelligent and can be quite charming and fun. My problem is I get all tangled up in their antics, so it's better if I don't get involved at all. I only came back here since I agreed with Geoffrey's cause -- the one that started this thread. But invariably back here things go increasingly bonkers.

Anyway, I just wanted to explain my behavior. I feel somewhat ashamed, as if I've stooped to their level. That's another reason I need to stop posting back here (!)

Sincerest best wishes,

Violet
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Ehlerdk
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Ehlerdk » Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:16 am

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juneC
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby juneC » Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:28 pm

Violet wrote:Dear June,

I just wanted to apologize to you for what must have seemed very insensitive behavior on my part. I know I was being glib, but my intention was just as I said was -- to warn you about some of the very strange characters back here in this section. It took me approximately two years of hanging out (once upon a time) to realize that at least 50% of those strange characters (if not more) belonged to just two people (!)

Anyway, you should do what you like. The two of them are highly intelligent and can be quite charming and fun. My problem is I get all tangled up in their antics, so it's better if I don't get involved at all. I only came back here since I agreed with Geoffrey's cause -- the one that started this thread. But invariably back here things go increasingly bonkers.

Anyway, I just wanted to explain my behavior. I feel somewhat ashamed, as if I've stooped to their level. That's another reason I need to stop posting back here (!)

Sincerest best wishes,

Violet

Don’t worry Violet .. it’s fine … I took your comments in the spirit you intended. I do seem to have joined this thread as a forum virgin though and that will teach me won’t it? I haven’t taken any umbrage I just find myself a bit bemused and confused by some of the (to me anyway) cryptic comments? But I like a challenge (up to a point) and will continue to at least observe with interest.
Thank you for your message of concern Violet - it is much appreciated,

June x
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Vicomte » Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:20 pm

I stacked a while ago and will wait for the pack to dealt again and perhaps I might see a better hand. I am confused at the moment as to what the hack is occurring
I guess it all started for me sometime around Christmas 1967 and now, goodness me, it's.........2017 and fifty years later.
No one ever listens to me. I might as well be a Leonard Cohen record.
Neil from The Young Ones
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Geoffrey
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Geoffrey » Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:20 pm

hei. i am laying low until the disruption subsides, then, hopefully, this subject can get back on track. meanwhile, i will add only that in my opinion the most important information to have so far evolved from this discussion was written by violet:

"I was reading that after a seemingly minor head injury one should not be left alone since symptoms can show up hours later. Going to sleep immediately after a head injury can also be dangerous since one can fall into a coma. Internal bleeding of the brain can take time to build up; this is why one isn't always aware of the imminent danger."

this seems to me, considering the management's refusal to offer any information, to be the most likely cause of leonard's untimely death.

-geoffrey
solongleonard
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby solongleonard » Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:26 pm

I agree with Geoffrey, for rather obvious reasons. I started this thread in a spirit of the most respectful enquiry. The beautiful responses from my old and, if I may be so bold, old friends as well has been a credit to Leonard's memory. I love you all

Chris/Geoffrey.
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Violet
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Violet » Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:08 am

juneC wrote:
Don’t worry Violet .. it’s fine … I took your comments in the spirit you intended. I do seem to have joined this thread as a forum virgin though and that will teach me won’t it? I haven’t taken any umbrage I just find myself a bit bemused and confused by some of the (to me anyway) cryptic comments? But I like a challenge (up to a point) and will continue to at least observe with interest.
Thank you for your message of concern Violet - it is much appreciated,

June x
Thanks, June, for your very kind note.

As for cryptic comments, you also have to keep in mind that a lot of remarks made back here that might seem cryptic to a newcomer are actually just plain asinine (!)

But, yeah, I'm sure there's some cryptic stuff as well.


Geoffrey,

To add to what you posted, the thing I noticed is some real disagreement as to just what happened in Spain. I mean, don't you find it odd that there are two very different accounts on this thread by two people who claim they were both there?

So maybe it's to pay attention to what people get all jumpy about. (Or what solong bird tries to make you look foolish for.) That could indicate you're getting closer to something.


Michael,

Hope all is well with you (present sad topic nothwithstanding).

Violet
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Geoffrey
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Geoffrey » Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:30 am

Violet wrote:Geoffrey,
To add to what you posted, the thing I noticed is some real disagreement as to just what happened in Spain. I mean, don't you find it odd that there are two very different accounts on this thread by two people who claim they were both there?
Violet
hello again, violet.

conflicting accounts, yes. as i understand it, wendy, who was in valencia and witnessed leonard's collapse, tends to believe the official explanation that food poisoning was the cause. i have eaten dinner with leonard and his entourage several times before a concert, and each time everyone helped themselves from a buffet. if this was the case in valencia, one would expect other diners to also have been ill, but leonard was the only one. neither were there any reports of any food being removed for analysis. recovery from food poisoning serious enough to cause a collapse normally takes a minimum of several days. vicomte was in barcelona forty-eight hours later and saw no sign of anything amiss. that is what i find odd, violet; i have no explanation. perhaps 'food poisoning' was a little white lie, but all of this happened more than six years before leonard's death - so let us return to the present time.

violet, you put this entire frustrating matter into a vacuum sealer when you bravely wrote: "i'm sorry, but robert kory's statement is lacking," - i believe you spoke for many of us. the management has ignored my emailed request for a comment, such unprofessional behaviour being contrary to the spirit of their client. excluding certain facts is called 'lying by omission', and as we are not even worthy of a "no comment" reply, it is up to us to interpret the "lacking" statement.

to discover what is lacking, we are forced to mentally reconstruct the domestic landscape in which leonard lived, envisage his environment and explore the possible scenarios. david remnick, a month before leonard died, wrote in 'the new yorker' that leonard sat in "a large blue medical chair" - a clinical care recliner similar to the one inserted in the picture below.

it is common at nighttime for elderly or very frail patients to wear an adult incontinence diaper, but i have no idea if this was necessary with leonard. it would have been natural in his situation, however, to have a commode standing near to his bed - but he may have needed assistance in using it. i assume he had some sort of alarm he could use to summon help, whether it be a string dangling above his bed that could be pulled to alert a living-in attendant, or a wireless wrist alarm connected to a 24-hour local nursing service.

in any case, something happened that resulted in his death. silence from the management implies negligence by someone, for otherwise there would be no need for such airtight secrecy. i am interested neither in names or the placement of blame, or whether someone is protecting an inexperienced or incompetent person. the only thing i request is the truth of what happened that night to a gentleman who supported and encouraged me over many, many years. is that really unreasonable?

https://youtu.be/KICUlpmZsmk
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juneC
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby juneC » Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:28 pm

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I wondered if you had seen these pictures Geoffrey of Leonard in the blue medical chair with perfumer Mandy Aftel - taken 11th August. He looks so frail bless him ..
June x
Cate
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Cate » Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:05 pm

Firstly
Hello June and it's nice to 'meet you', also hello Solong nice to meet you as well.

Geoffrey wrote:in any case, something happened that resulted in his death. silence from the management implies negligence by someone, for otherwise there would be no need for such airtight secrecy.
What you write is very possible
but it is also possible, just looking at this from different angles, that the silence may just be reflection of how this family handles loss and their own struggle to come to terms with what has happened.

Thinking back to your own close losses, did you ever get lost in that merry go round of intrusive thoughts? 'why didn't I... I should have ... maybe if I had...'
It's what people do isn't it? but it's not exactly a rational state of mind and not the best time to get rational answers from people.

Going back to Leonard's falling or passing out on stage 6 years ago. Yes, that's the past but it could be an indicator that perhaps Leonard had low blood pressure or some other factor that comes with being an elderly guy, that made in not so unusual for him to occasionally fall. Maybe, one possible possibility is that when he fell and his daughter (or whoever) heard a bump or thump, maybe she called up 'you okay' and maybe he called down 'yep - insert typical Leonard joke' and maybe she was tired and maybe she fell back to sleep and maybe she's stuck in a loop like the one above.

Maybe (my word of the day) proximity is still playing a factor. The closer you are in time/space/feeling to event the stronger it's pull. Perhaps answers were and still are slow, because those who can give the answers may still be, being pulled into the event.

Myself, the first things that I wondered about after the announcement of Leonard's death without an explanation being given were - 'Did Leonard chose his own path?' and, 'Could there have been a mistake with pain killers?'.
It felt like there was something 'extra' there.
When Kory said that he had fallen, it seemed to be an answer (for me) as to what that 'extra' was.

I don't think that you are 'being unreasonable' in needing to understand what happened, you've lost somebody that you care about.
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Mabeanie1
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Mabeanie1 » Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:38 pm

Hello again Geoffrey

I am a little affronted at the suggestion that I might accept any official explanation of anything without question! The only reason I accept management's story re the fall is that is pretty much what happened to my 83 year old mother. That's not to say I don't want to know any more. I do. I hope you get some answers to all those questions you posed.

Re Valencia: I think I am the only one who has posted who was actually there. I have also discussed what happened a few times with a leading band member to whom I became quite close during the tour. It wasn't anything to do with the meals provided before the show. They had been in town a few days and eaten "on the town". Leonard had been ill for a while (though no one knew at the time) and had not eaten before the show or for some time. In those circumstances, and still throwing up, it wasn't so surprising that he collapsed. He should have cancelled the show but didn't. As an aside, a similar thing happened in Ghent in August 2012 when they were a hair's breath away from cancelling the first show after Roscoe went down with food poisoning.

As for Barcelona, I thought Leonard was still less than 100%. Vicomte thought he was on great form with no sign of anything amiss. That's great. Leonard would be pleased that he covered the cracks so well.

Wendy
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Violet
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Violet » Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:00 pm

Hi Geoffrey, Cate and Wendy.

The only reason the collapse in Spain came up in my mind had to do with the Maclean's magazine disclosure that he'd passed out "for some unknown reason" years before (in 1992) in his kitchen in LA. So, the question that came up for me around this was whether he collapsed with any frequency -- whether there was a pattern, in other words.

We may never know the answer to that since there's a lot that gets left out of bio material. But the reason the question remains relevant is that if this was true it goes to another possible reason why he fell.

Cate, I understand what you're saying about the fraught situation the family may find itself in, and you flesh out the possible details of that very compellingly.

People here have said they don't know what is right or wrong in this situation. I tried to make a case that the circumstances in question should come to light. But I am also not insensitive to what may well be the family's side of this.

I don't have much to add at this point except to say that when I was attempting to keep up with the various accounts of Leonard's death by those close to him, it came as something of a let down to have all that end in a brief statement that seemed to conceal more than enlighten. I would say that at the very least there needed to be [far more? a degree more? I can't decide] disclosed in Kory's statement, especially since, as it stands, it contains seeming contradictions that only serve to plant doubt in the minds of anyone trying to come to terms with all this.
Violet
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Violet
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Violet » Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:24 pm

I wanted to add one more thing. I was surprised to learn that the memorial service in LA was as closed as it was. I thought of all the people that had gone to Leonard's recent shows, time after time -- all the love and support they had shown -- and I was left scratching my head that they/we wouldn't all be welcomed to come to pay tribute and our last respects.

Why I bring this up is that to me it's somehow all of a piece. Where there could have been greater openness there was instead retreat.
Violet
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Geoffrey
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Geoffrey » Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:44 pm

just to say i intend eventually to answer as many messages as possible.
juneC wrote:I wondered if you had seen these pictures Geoffrey of Leonard in the blue medical chair with perfumer Mandy Aftel - taken 11th August. He looks so frail bless him ..
June x
no, june - i had not. thank you! fascinating to study them, the jakemans lozenges, the miniature menorahs, etc. i found them in high resolution on the 'pinterest' site, and attach a wider version of the upper one - showing a gentleman called foster curry. mandy aftel is also acquainted with donovan leitch. i presume that is leonard's bedroom in the background, at the end of the hallway, plus a tiled bathroom to the right - likely the area in which the accident occurred.

i am overwhelmed by the contributions to this little thread that was started just before christmas. so much goodwill and kindness, i had not anticipated. indeed, i half expected one of the moderators to deem it too insensitive and controversial - and delete it. let it be known that i am thankful to the webmaster for tolerating my questions. it is refreshing to know that one is still allowed to express a reasonable opinion without censorship.
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