"come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

This is for your own works!!!
User avatar
Geoffrey
Posts: 2255
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:11 am

Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Geoffrey » Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:05 am

Cheshire gal wrote:I care Geoffrey. I would very much like to know how Leonard died. The information given to us by The Management, does seem odd. I cannot imagine Leonard being left alone when he was so obviously weak and in so much pain.
I find it very hard to contemplate what his last day/evening was like.

Thank you Geoffrey for keeping this from being forgotten.
my dear cheshire gal.
it is uplifting to know that my slow and ineffectual efforts to receive some facts concerning the death of a great man can inspire gratitude. thank you for this feedback! i have now, with much reluctancy and nervousness, made contact with TMZ to ask if they are willing to help - and will keep you informed :-)
solongleonard
Posts: 117
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:51 am

Re: "come north from the cloud of nowing . . ."

Postby solongleonard » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:10 pm

I find this entire thread horrible. There is a tone of flamboyance to some of the posts. It seems to be a Show Trial of the circumstances. I don't blame Geoffrey entirely for this. It is maybe no more than 98.6% his fault. Discussions about the death of a great man could, I posit, be conducted with more "sobriety". Questions can be asked but perhaps more genteelly. Suggesting that a Bob Dylan internet inquest would be so different is particularly distasteful. None of this lessens my affection for Geoffrey and I will take the imminent advice to not read and go elsewhere, and I will also certainly take any criticism of my own earlier flippancy.

I don't dig the flashy Junior Detective nature of this Thread.

Bye
Vicomte
Posts: 823
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:49 am
Location: Saint Malo Bretagne

Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Vicomte » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:31 pm

Bye
I guess it all started for me sometime around Christmas 1967 and now, goodness me, it's.........2017 and fifty years later.
No one ever listens to me. I might as well be a Leonard Cohen record.
Neil from The Young Ones
User avatar
Violet
Posts: 3193
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:07 pm
Location: New York

Re: "come north from the cloud of nowing . . ."

Postby Violet » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:45 pm

solongleonard wrote:I find this entire thread horrible. There is a tone of flamboyance to some of the posts. It seems to be a Show Trial of the circumstances. I don't blame Geoffrey entirely for this. It is maybe no more than 98.6% his fault. Discussions about the death of a great man could, I posit, be conducted with more "sobriety". Questions can be asked but perhaps more genteelly. Suggesting that a Bob Dylan internet inquest would be so different is particularly distasteful. None of this lessens my affection for Geoffrey and I will take the imminent advice to not read and go elsewhere, and I will also certainly take any criticism of my own earlier flippancy.

I don't dig the flashy Junior Detective nature of this Thread.

Bye
However, for better or for worse, its whole premise is the province of detective work. But that there could be a more genteel approach might be something to aim for.
Violet
User avatar
Geoffrey
Posts: 2255
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:11 am

Re: "come north from the cloud of nowing . . ."

Postby Geoffrey » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:37 am

this quest for transparency has been met with a suspicious silence by those who know the truth. my instinct tells me that all i have managed so far to do is incur the restrained wrath of leonard's family, his manager, very possibly the webmaster of this site - as well as the loyal moderators and assistants who bow to his authority. to them i say the same as nietzsche: "the death of god will give birth to man's freedom." well, all right - it was i who said that, but the point is that as soon as one takes responsibility for one's own actions, that is when one starts to breathe. if you disagree with this quest to uncover some facts surrounding the heartbreaking incident that occurred during the early hours of 7th november 2016, then please say so. you have a personality, an opinion, a voice - so don't let blind obedience to a higher power suffocate your right to individuality. at the moment i am speaking up, causing trouble, making waves - and the webmaster has a dilemma. should he continue to allow this 'tyranny' against leonard's family and management, with whom he has had a longstanding cordial relationship, or should he tolerate it? after all, judging from the hits this thread receives every day, it has become one of the most popular and eagerly monitored areas of his entire forum. make no mistake, he sees me as a snake, but one that bakes a golden cake. he knows i attract people, just like leonard.

here is a previously unpublished picture, to show you what i mean:
bergen 28 august 2012.jpg
User avatar
Mollydog
Posts: 2863
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:25 pm
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Mollydog » Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:01 pm

I disagree with this "quest". You have every right to do it but I feel it should not be associated with this forum.

Mary
1972 London/1974 London/1985 Montreal/1993 Ottawa/2008 Montreal,London O2/2009 NYC Beacon,Kingston,Ottawa X 2,Barcelona,Las Vegas,San José/2010 Malmo,Las Vegas X 2/2012 Verona,Vancouver,Montreal X 2,Ottawa,Kingston/2013 NYC, Hamilton
User avatar
Geoffrey
Posts: 2255
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:11 am

Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Geoffrey » Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:48 pm

Mollydog wrote:I disagree with this "quest". You have every right to do it but I feel it should not be associated with this forum.
this is a valuable comment, mary - thank you.
- would you like to give a reason? :-)


--------------------------------------
as a follow-up to the previous photograph showing the magnetism of one man,
here he is still on stage several hours later - and no one had moved!
leo.jpg
User avatar
Violet
Posts: 3193
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:07 pm
Location: New York

Re: "come north from the cloud of nowing . . ."

Postby Violet » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:28 pm

Geoffrey wrote:this quest for transparency has been met with a suspicious silence by those who know the truth. my instinct tells me that all i have managed so far to do is incur the restrained wrath of leonard's family, his manager, very possibly the webmaster of this site - as well as the loyal moderators and assistants who bow to his authority. to them i say the same as nietzsche: "the death of god will give birth to man's freedom." well, all right - it was i who said that, but the point is that as soon as one takes responsibility for one's own actions, that is when one starts to breathe. if you disagree with this quest to uncover some facts surrounding the heartbreaking incident that occurred during the early hours of 7th november 2016, then please say so. you have a personality, an opinion, a voice - so don't let blind obedience to a higher power suffocate your right to individuality. at the moment i am speaking up, causing trouble, making waves - and the webmaster has a dilemma. should he continue to allow this 'tyranny' against leonard's family and management, with whom he has had a longstanding cordial relationship, or should he tolerate it? after all, judging from the hits this thread receives every day, it has become one of the most popular and eagerly monitored areas of his entire forum. make no mistake, he sees me as a snake, but one that bakes a golden cake. he knows i attract people, just like leonard.
Geoffrey, I'm not sure you need to place yourself in such an adversarial position where the family and management and even webmaster are concerned. As to the family, keep in mind Cate's recent post, and what could very likely be the kinds of issues they still are grappling with. Remember also that, along with losing their father, they have lost in him a person whose considerable legacy they are left to manage and protect; and even if they have been counseled in this beforehand by Leonard himself, the sudden reality of such a responsibility is likely to be weighty and formidable -- especially when they are emotionally distraught as well.

Having said that, to pursue the truth is the business of this thread, and I am not questioning your/our doing that. I'm just suggesting that it may be best to go about the business without assuming the worst on their end. After all, for all you know there could even be some empathy for your own expressed concerns. So, why assume the worst? Their silence could house a range of feelings -- again, not all of them unsympathetic.

And Jarkko is a kind hearted and good soul, as far as I've ever seen. To be fair, even Robert Kory, whom I know very little about, isn't in the easiest spot with all this.

Anyway, it just seems to me that one can remain focused on the task at hand, realizing that not all is as it seems in many respects -- not just concerning the circumstances of Leonard's death, but even in the hearts and minds of those closest.
Violet
User avatar
Geoffrey
Posts: 2255
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:11 am

Re: "come north from the cloud of nowing . . ."

Postby Geoffrey » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:20 am

dear violet.

thank you for writing such a reassuring letter, you are good at doing that. all right, i will try to put a brake on this persecution complex of mine. the trouble is that other writer, one who goes by the name of 'mollydog', said we should take it somewhere else: "it should not be associated with this forum" - she said. that is why i don't have much self confidence, and i didn't really know what to say back. what would you have answered?

yes, i have met jarkko once or twice, and he always puts his arm around me and tells me everything's going to be all right. i will try to find a picture of us both together. well, i have to go now, but don't forget to write again whenever you get the time.

meanwhile, i remain your friend and wish you well.

-geoffrey
jarkko and me.jpg
User avatar
Violet
Posts: 3193
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:07 pm
Location: New York

Re: "come north from the cloud of nowing . . ."

Postby Violet » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:43 am

That's a lovely photo of the two of you.
Geoffrey wrote:the trouble is that other writer, one who goes by the name of 'mollydog', said we should take it somewhere else: "it should not be associated with this forum" - she said. that is why i don't have much self confidence, and i didn't really know what to say back. what would you have answered?
As to your question, I think you said the exact right thing in asking Mollydog what her reasons are. Hopefully, she'll come around to letting us know. I think it's a difficult subject for people, so it's to give things some time.
Violet
User avatar
Mollydog
Posts: 2863
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:25 pm
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Mollydog » Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:15 am

Geoffrey wrote:
Mollydog wrote:I disagree with this "quest". You have every right to do it but I feel it should not be associated with this forum.
this is a valuable comment, mary - thank you.
- would you like to give a reason? :-)
HI Geoffrey,

I had hoped that my post would encourage others to express their views. As Violet says, it is a difficult subject for people so maybe this is the reason for the silence.

There are a couple of things that bother me about this whole discussion.

When I first read Robert Kory's statement about Leonard's fall I had concerns too. My main one being whether Leonard was alone when he died. After a lot of reflection I concluded that I don't have any right to ask the family to provide me with details of such a personal tragedy.

The idea of contacting a website such as TMZ that describes itself as celebrity gossip concerns me. I would hate to see details of Leonard's death being headline news on their site and the fan club (as they most likely would describe the forum) being somehow involved in this.

Mary
1972 London/1974 London/1985 Montreal/1993 Ottawa/2008 Montreal,London O2/2009 NYC Beacon,Kingston,Ottawa X 2,Barcelona,Las Vegas,San José/2010 Malmo,Las Vegas X 2/2012 Verona,Vancouver,Montreal X 2,Ottawa,Kingston/2013 NYC, Hamilton
User avatar
Geoffrey
Posts: 2255
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:11 am

Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Geoffrey » Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:36 am

firstly, a big thank you to violet, for a complimentary remark concerning the photograph of jarkko and myself. :-)

mollydog wrote:
>There are a couple of things that bother me about this whole discussion.

there are a couple of things that bother others, too - about leonard's death. yes, TMZ certainly deals with gossip, and unfortunately the vagueness of Mr Kory's 'lacking' statement is a veritable breeding ground for rumours and speculation.

>I don't have any right to ask the family to provide me with details

well, you do have the right to ask, but not demand - that would be the job of an official at an inquest. when circumstances surrounding an unexpected death are guarded by just one or two people, it is natural, proper and healthy to ask questions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquest

thank you, mary, for sharing your opinion, for speaking politely about what you believe. i am sure there are a number of lurkers here who envy you your spirit :-)
User avatar
Geoffrey
Posts: 2255
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:11 am

Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Geoffrey » Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:47 pm

hello friends. it appears that interest in this discussion is waning. therefore, unless anyone has anything else to add, i reckon it's time to nail down the lid. the website TMZ will not be writing about leonard, by the way, so mollydog, you need not be worried - put those valiums away. leonard was probably not well enough known for them. scandal and controversy is the lifeblood of any celebrity seeking to be a household name, and apart from the time when that ex-manager emptied his bank account, i cannot recall another occasion when his name was in the tabloids - even on a slow news day

actually, that makes me think of something. violet suggested that perhaps i am not hated by the webmaster, leonard's family and manager. perhaps they have empathy with me. they may even approve of the attention i try to bring to his name - who knows? like they say in the world of celebrities: "no publicity is bad publicity!" it is important to keep an artist's name in the news, whether said person is dead or alive, because their work will continue to have commercial value for as long as their name remains relevant. do i not speak the truth?

well, let us compare obituaries: please bear with me for a moment while i air one or two thoughts. when amy winehouse, also of the jewish faith, was found dead some while ago, the news was released immediately. although she was very famous, the press gave her passing considerably less attention than it deserved, because the newspapers were completely swamped at the time with news of anders behring breivik who had murdered 77 people the previous day. like leonard, amy was buried three days after her death, but unlike him it followed an autopsy. several factors causing her death were announced, the main one being alcohol poisoning. her final hours were fastidiously detailed, the precise time she was discovered, the position in which she lay, the number of ambulances that were called, the items removed from her room, how many milligrams per 100 milliliters of blood alcohol content she had, etc., etc., etc.; there was no attempt to delay the news or keep anything secret. as with leonard, the funeral was a private affair, but with fans assembled respectfully and peacefully outside the cemetery gates while the graveside service was conducted.

news of leonard's death last year was withheld for three days, until after his funeral. it was later reported: "with only immediate family and a few lifelong friends present, he was lowered into the ground in an unadorned pine box, next to his mother and father - exactly as he'd asked." does this mean he asked for only family and friends to be present, or simply that he wanted to be laid next to his parents in a simple coffin? in any case, no matter how one interprets that sentence, fans gathering outside the cemetery gates to pay their last respects would not really have interfered with a private graveside service. or perhaps the news was withheld because the day following leonard's passing was the date of the USA election, and such news would have received minimum media coverage - but i cannot believe that would have been the reason for the delay - surely that would have been the last thing on anyone's mind. all i am doing is comparing the similarities between two deaths.

bob dylan had a knack for regularly being the media's target, right from when the folk singer first walked on stage with an electric guitar strapped to his body amid boos - and subsequent shouts of "judas!". apart from continually re-inventing himself, there was the famous motorcycle accident, then his much publicised divorce from sara, then being driven away by police after he was found looking through windows at the back of an empty house, then causing uproar in the art world when it was discovered his 'asian series' of pictures were exact copies of someone else's work, and more recently, of course, it was the nobel prize; his slow reaction to acknowledge the award, and then sending someone else to collect it. add to this he was the first artist to release a double album ('blonde on blonde'), the first to make a rap song and music video ('subterranean homesick blues'), the first to break the 3-minute format ('like a rolling stone') and the first to suffer widespread bootlegging ('great white wonder') - well, how could anyone compete?

by the way, even though there was no medical autopsy performed on leonard, there is a procedure called a 'psychological autopsy' (often implemented after possible suicides), a method involving the collecting all available information on the deceased via structured interviews of family members, relatives or friends, including attending health care personnel. this can be conducted after the funeral, of course.

that's all from me, a big thank you to everyone who took part in this discussion. i hope i did not upset anyone, merely wanted to say what was on my mind, and maybe give a little food for thought. close with a little pencil portrait made while thinking about what to write :-)
pencil portrait.jpg
User avatar
juneC
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:40 pm

Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby juneC » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:21 am

Hello Geoffrey :)

I was getting a bit worried about your absence from this thread Geoffrey. I am happy to see that nothing was amiss but rather that you were waiting to see if any more useful contributions were posted. I am glad you have decided that no one ‘hates’ you Geoffrey, after all why would they? Leonard’s family and close friends and the webmaster must all be aware of how much Leonard meant to you (and how much you meant to Leonard!). I am sure they would realise that your concerns are all borne out of your love for Leonard and whilst, as I think you have probably accepted, they may never be answered, I feel sure there will have been empathy towards you and your desire for a more transparent, detailed report of exactly how Leonard came to die. When I consider the various alternatives I tend to come to the conclusion that if Leonard’s final hours were not quite as we would all wish them to have been and if that were made public, how dreadful that would make us all feel; much better don’t you think to hope and believe that it was very peaceful and his family were at his side? When I first discovered Cohencentric I had the temerity to ask Allan if he could tell me how Leonard was in terms of his health, as at the time I couldn’t seem to find any recently taken photographs of Leonard and I was afraid he might be ailing. His response was that information relating to Leonard’s health was never provided for fear of “fan angst”. (I know now that Leonard’s health was already suffering but at the time I brushed my fears aside following Allan’s reply) I suppose this is a similar scenario - sort of ignorance is bliss type of thing - far from blissful of course but too much knowledge might be worse.
Another lovely portrait Geoffrey - you really do capture the essence of Leonard :)
June x
User avatar
Violet
Posts: 3193
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:07 pm
Location: New York

Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Violet » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:55 am

Geoffrey wrote: well, let us compare obituaries: please bear with me for a moment while i air one or two thoughts. when amy winehouse, also of the jewish faith, was found dead some while ago, the news was released immediately. although she was very famous, the press gave her passing considerably less attention than it deserved, because the newspapers were completely swamped at the time with news of anders behring breivik who had murdered 77 people the previous day. like leonard, amy was buried three days after her death, but unlike him it followed an autopsy. several factors causing her death were announced, the main one being alcohol poisoning. her final hours were fastidiously detailed, the precise time she was discovered, the position in which she lay, the number of ambulances that were called, the items removed from her room, how many milligrams per 100 milliliters of blood alcohol content she had, etc., etc., etc.; there was no attempt to delay the news or keep anything secret. as with leonard, the funeral was a private affair, but with fans assembled respectfully and peacefully outside the cemetery gates while the graveside service was conducted.
Hi Geoffrey.

Interesting you brought up the death of Amy Winehouse. I was writing quite a lot here at that time, particularly with regard to little known aspects concerning the counter culture, its music scene, etc.

I first noticed Winehouse's death given she died at the age of twenty-seven, which means she joined what is termed "the twenty-seven club," with Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, Jimi Hendrix, Brian Jones, and later Kurt Cobain (and perhaps others) as its members.

What you are missing from your Winehouse account, Geoffrey, is the fact that even with an autopsy and toxicology report Winehouse's death could NOT be determined. This state of affairs continued for months after her death, and there were a lot of headlines concerning this at the time. Complicating matters was the fact that Winehouse had just completed time at a detox clinic and was not drinking. She was also reportedly under the care and watch of a man who functioned as her "tough love" body guard (whose name escapes me just now). There were also witnesses who had heard screams in the early morning the day she was found dead.

The cause of death was eventually arrived at not because the autopsy or toxicology report suddenly became more "legible." No, what changed, in fact, was simply the coroner. And it remains my contention that the original coroner was just not as, uh, "willing to cooperate" as the one who was later summoned. (This was all neatly glossed over in the recent documentary on Winehouse, by the way.)

I won't comment on the details concerning the other high profile deaths -- those related to the counter culture, I mean -- other than to say that in every case there are meddlesome facts and witness testimony that just didn't measure up with the official story.

But given the Winehouse matter, what I came to understand was the "hidden" danger that high visibility celebrities are in who are known to have serious substance abuse problems. This is because, outside of the obvious dangers involved with the substance abuse itself, there is the way in which such highly publicized substance abuse problems provide a very convincing cover for what might actually be foul play. Now, as to why these musicians may have been killed -- the nefarious purposes this may have served -- I did come to some conclusions, and may at some point publish something on that.

As for Leonard's death.. he, of course, was frail, and old, and as far as we can determine (although Kory's statement didn't confirm this) he was suffering from cancer. Even if the immediate cause of death was due to a fall, I'm still unsure, Geoffrey, why you brought up the idea of an inquest, especially since you haven't yet consulted the proper agency in L.A. to obtain the death certificate, which, after all, is a matter of public record. Then, if your efforts in this are in some manner obstructed, you would at least have learned that much, and could continue from there. But that would be the first thing to attempt. And it doesn't require an intermediary.

Try going to the Los Angeles County Clerk's office online. Or just do a search asking how to obtain a death certificate in Los Angeles. I'm pretty sure this can be accomplished online.
Last edited by Violet on Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
Violet

Return to “Writing, Music and Art by the Forum members”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests