influences on leonard?

Debate on Leonard Cohen's poetry (and novels), both published and unpublished. Song lyrics may also be discussed here.
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mat james
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Postby mat james » Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:47 pm

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humanponysss2000

That is one influence HP
But that is not the end of it.

Tell me of the other influences, "if it be your will".

Matj
"Without light or guide, save that which burned in my heart." San Juan de la Cruz.
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Re: influences on leonard?

Postby lazariuk » Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:25 pm

mat james wrote:It seems to me that there are influences of the poem "Dark Night of the Soul" by San Juan de la Cruiz on Leonards version of "Undertow".
Hi Mat

I have seen that you have mentioned that poem a number of times. I also have been deeply moved by it, so much so that I named my son Jacob St. John. Have you heard Loreena McKennitt's version of "Dark Night of the Soul" ?
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~greg
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Postby ~greg » Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:47 am

In this context please don't forget "The Divine Comedy",
which beings:...

"Inferno: Canto I
Midway upon the journey of our life
I found myself within a forest dark,
For the straightforward pathway had been lost.
..."

and ends:...

"Paradiso: Canto XXXIII
...
As the geometrician, who endeavours
To square the circle, and discovers not,
By taking thought, the principle he wants,

Even such was I at that new apparition;
I wished to see how the image to the circle
Conformed itself, and how it there finds place;

But my own wings were not enough for this,
Had it not been that then my mind there smote
A flash of lightning, wherein came its wish.

Here vigour failed the lofty fantasy:
But now was turning my desire and will,
Even as a wheel that equally is moved,

The Love which moves the sun and the other stars."

(Translated by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow)

~



I have posted two related poems by Frost in "Other Poetry".

(your assignment:
interpret: "...at an unearthly height, One luminary clock...")
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mat james
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Postby mat james » Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:04 am

I haven't "heard" it Jack, but I have read it.
Someone posted it on the forum awhile ago and I copied it to my desktop.
I just read it again.....Beautiful :)

I have been a fan of this poem and it's author for about 20 years.
I have read all of his works (I think) and I just love the guy.
I don't know anyone else (personally) who has read him.

I devoured both books about the one poem, " Dark Night of the Soul". One book is called by the same name and the other book is called "Ascent of Mt. Carmel"
What is fascinating about those books is the volume of the comments/explanations about the meaning of the one poem. Both books are about the one poem "Dark Night of the Soul" and both books only make it to the 3rd verse!!!
That is one reason I argue that "Mystic Poets" use symbols and if you can gain an understanding of the symbols, then a whole new meaning unfolds as you read the work (like Leonard's work too).

I have summarised the work of St.John of the Cross into one poem. It is quite a long poem (for me). I will post it for you, fellow lover of San Juan, below.
I hope you enjoy it.
I had a beautiful time writing it. Matj



The bed of Shiloh.
( reflections on San Juan's work, particularly his poem ‘Living Flame of Love’ ).


God is asleep
in the substance of my Soul !

how fitting
for my mind
to seek this resting place
by moving towards silence
by living the tranquil life.

god is asleep
in the substance of my soul...

how lucky !
how happy !
the mind
who finds his lady, soul,
asleep in her bed
of shiloh
with her lover, god.

god and his lover
my soul
are snoozing
in a tender slumber
-loving silence
this lazy union

she wakes to his breathing
and phones me
-mind
gossiping
crying, laughing
and passes on what she can
via the limits of this connection

she tells of her waking
on the whispering pillow
in the pulsing Shiloh
she knows his quivering touch !

He awoke in my substance...

and my heart-fluttering eager bride
juxtaposed of god and mind
-tastes, touches, visualises
scents
with her back to me
and all I can do
( all my mind can do )
is hear about it...

mind cannot experience god
that is souls pleasure.
she mates with him
in holy communion
-and gossips to me
and as she falls...
into
my Shaitan my satan
( my rational mind )
she is abused and beaten
by human reason/judgement
and cast from her para-dise
her eden of shiloh.

god lays slumbering
in the delicate substance
of sweet soul
her dreamy eye-lids lift- lightly
glancing
at the sound of the knocking-door !

the knock of faith
the tap-tapping of wonder
the wedged door-jam of hope
the sledge-hammer of charity

( some never knock
some never wonder
some never seek
-some never find...)

god is asleep in the substance of soul
god is slumbering with his lover in shiloh
-tranquil-moving-waters of silence

he whispers sweet-nothings
to the listening imagination


delicacy
timidity of imagination
is the lost key to this kingdom
thrown
cast away by the rational deductive mind
( that shaitan that Lucifer that lesser-light )

Mind
can know of god
can chase and hunt him
can knock
can peek
can turn the key in the kingdom-door
-but only soul sleeps with him...
only soul wakes to him...

the quest ?
the quest-aeon ?
the question ?
the questaeon...
- for mind to seek soul
- and to listen
- to her gossip and her stammerings.

she is the swimmer
the fish
in the substance of the mind
she surfs on the conscious
deep-sea-dives the unconscious
she has gills for that world
the silently whispering waters of shiloh...
percolated stammerings of the Myst...

to myth

half-awake in a dreamy love affair
mind must believe that fish can be hooked
mind must go fishing
must walk the calm walk on the stormy waters
of consciousness and life
must dolphin-hunt the seas of soul

mind must go fishing for his sweet-heart
soul
in the unconscious of self.

god is sleeping with my sweet-heart !!
she
my two-timing slumberer
kissing me after sleeping with him !
that voyer !
that faithless lover of two
-mind and god
him all night
me all day ?
and she sings “ I am in him, he is in me, we are one ”

god is asleep in my soul
her eye-lids flutter at my calling
imagination
and in her waking
I become god – a holy communion of One
I become god – by participation.

on souls hovering
winged in Trinity
humming in harmony one song...

... god is awake in the substance of my soul
... my soul wakes in the substance of god
how fitting for mind to seek
this resting place,
Shiloh...



Poem by Mat James.
"Without light or guide, save that which burned in my heart." San Juan de la Cruz.
lazariuk
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Postby lazariuk » Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:23 pm

mat james wrote: I have summarised the work of St.John of the Cross into one poem. It is quite a long poem (for me). I will post it for you, fellow lover of San Juan, below.
I hope you enjoy it.
I had a beautiful time writing it. Matj
Thanks. It is one that I will print out and read again and maybe again and again.
I wish i had one to share in return, but I don't and the best I can do is tell a story.
It's sad but maybe not too sad.
I fell in love with the poem at quite a young age during a time that I experienced a very unique joy. The years took it toll and I tried sometimes to speak of the joy I experienced but it never really seemed to matter and I never felt that the communicating did any good. I never did let myself be deceived into thinking that the joy wasn't real but I did allow myself to become intimidated into thinking that it wasn't very important and slowly I lost the feel of the joy and began to forget about the poem.
One day there was a few people over at my house and we were all a little stoned and I realized how dissatisfied I was in what we were all talking about and so I went off into a room and took out my copy of "Dark Night of the Soul" and read it again after so many years. Then I realized what I had let happen to myself.
I came to feel that there was a price of lonliness to be paid to hold on to the kind of joy that the poem pointed to but that it was a price that was worth paying. I had to accept that maybe no one in my life would ever know what that poem could mean to someone and that it was something that no one in my life would ever be sharing with me. It was that kind of thing though that I was writing about when I tried to describe what Leonard's words "shield of lonliness" meant to me. I went to sleep that night feeling very alone.
The next morning I got in my car to go somewhere and the first song that came on the radio was Lorenna singing "Dark Night of the Soul". I was so surprised and had to phone the radio station to find the singer's name. The morning brought the hope that the lonliness would not be forever.
Thats my story.
I read those books you mentioned as well.
It is somewhat what I was trying to write about with my poem about following the glitter.
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Postby lazariuk » Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:00 pm

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lizzytysh
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Postby lizzytysh » Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:14 pm

One day there was a few people over at my house and we were all a little stoned and I realized how dissatisfied I was in what we were all talking about and so I went off into a room and took out my copy of "Dark Night of the Soul" and read it again after so many years. Then I realized what I had let happen to myself.
I came to feel that there was a price of lonliness to be paid to hold on to the kind of joy that the poem pointed to but that it was a price that was worth paying. I had to accept that maybe no one in my life would ever know what that poem could mean to someone and that it was something that no one in my life would ever be sharing with me. It was that kind of thing though that I was writing about when I tried to describe what Leonard's words "shield of lonliness" meant to me. I went to sleep that night feeling very alone.
The next morning I got in my car to go somewhere and the first song that came on the radio was Lorenna singing "Dark Night of the Soul". I was so surprised and had to phone the radio station to find the singer's name. The morning brought the hope that the lonliness would not be forever.
An exquisite paradigm shift, with absolute confirmation that your seeking is your path. My wish for you is that your hope will manifest and your loneliness will not be forever. Couldn't possibly ask for higher or better recommendations than Mat's poem and your story, Jack. So much that's relevant can be shared through stories of one's own experiences.

Is your graphic a holding on for dear life? Perhaps, to a magnifying glass that assists you in the examination of it?

Thanks to both of you.


~ Lizzy
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Postby lazariuk » Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:09 pm

lizzytysh wrote:Is your graphic a holding on for dear life? Perhaps, to a magnifying glass that assists you in the examination of it?
That was a Ram Tzu graphic of part of a time keeping device that I thought was in line with the title of "Influences on Leonard"

A image that maybe inspired

"I've been where you're hanging"
a hanging that swings between feeling holy and being told that you've sinned

and the fear of letting go

your magnifying glass idea is interesting and I can't speak for Ram Tzu but I think he might agree that it is the seeing that is the doing that needs to be done
Last edited by lazariuk on Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby lizzytysh » Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:20 pm

... ah, yes, I see now the pendulum. Thanks. I understand the connections you've made with it for here and elsewhere.

Thanks, too, for considering my thoughts on it.


~ Lizzy
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mat james
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Postby mat james » Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:21 am

It is somewhat what I was trying to write about with my poem about following the glitter.
Jack L.

Cruz says: "and something that they are stammering leaves me dying"

"Stammering" perhaps is verbal "glitter"

The "they" in the quote above refers to all the little "hints" that nature unfolds/unfurls before us.
I always enjoy your stories Jack. When talking to you about Cruz; I am reminded of that Pink Floyd line in their song, "Wish you were here":
"We're just two lost souls swimmin' in a fish bowl".

And that "lost" is sublime as it leads to the "Dark Night" and "into the Mystic" as Van the Man Morrison would sing.

But that bloody girl on the Pendulum!!!
It is worth this trip in time (life) to go chasing her stammerings :twisted:
"Without light or guide, save that which burned in my heart." San Juan de la Cruz.
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Postby lizzytysh » Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:26 am

But that bloody girl on the Pendulum!!!
It is worth this trip in time (life) to go chasing her stammerings :twisted:

Is it okay to be a woman and still understand this comment :wink: ? I, too, would love to know what she stammers.


~ Lizzy
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Postby lazariuk » Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:59 am

mat james wrote: But that bloody girl on the Pendulum!!!
It is worth this trip in time (life) to go chasing her stammerings :twisted:
Well the poor girl can't hold on forever. Got me to thinking that since the guy who made the picture was a buddy of the Indian teacher who Anjani speaks highly of, that maybe she is thinking of that picture when she sings "I was saved by a blessed fatigue"
Just a silly thought I am having when it is well pass the time I should be sleeping.
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Postby lazariuk » Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:17 am

mat james wrote:I haven't "heard" it Jack, but I have read it.
.
Here is a taste of it.

http://www.quinlanroad.com/audio/maskan ... knight.mp3
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mat james
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Postby mat james » Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:23 am

changed my mind!
Last edited by mat james on Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Without light or guide, save that which burned in my heart." San Juan de la Cruz.
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mat james
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Postby mat james » Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:03 am

Greg teasers;

(your assignment:
interpret: "...at an unearthly height, One luminary clock...")

" I turned to speak to God
About the world's despair
But to make bad matters worse
I found God wasn't there." ......Frost

.. my own wings were not enough for this,
had it not been that then my mind there smote
a flash of Moonlit eternity?
wherein came its wish?
The Love which moves the sun and the other stars...

I wish!
One luminary clock..
I read Frost as a man of this world.
So it's nature's Moon,
to me, Greg
...only the Moon...
Last edited by mat james on Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Without light or guide, save that which burned in my heart." San Juan de la Cruz.

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